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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2008 :  17:02:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you'd like to read the entire Badminton episode, Stephanie Meyer has posted it as an outtake on her site here:

http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/twilight_outtakes.html

I also recommend reading the Midnight Sun draft for the story from Edward's viewpoint. You might as well read the draft as it is posted since there's no telling when or if she will actually continue with her intention of publishing it.

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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2008 :  02:39:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just watched the first two episodes of True Blood, and I have to say that if you can't make a good vampire story with Alan Ball and Anna Paquin, I can't think this flick could be any good.

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"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2008 :  10:24:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry diri, I'm being dense today. Are you saying you like True Blood and nothing can compare, or are you saying it is awful, so the Twilight movie will probably be just as bad?

I looked up True Blood-- sounds interesting, but since I don't have HBO I'll have to wait for DVD.

Am returning Interview today. Just could not get into it. I don't really like stories about being a vampire, I guess. I'm more like Bella, in that it doesn't matter what the character is so much, as long as who he is is interesting. Personally, I liked Jacob.

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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2008 :  03:32:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm saying that it wasn't good; despite the presence of one of my favourite actresses, Anna Paquin, and Alan Ball, the creator of my favourite TV show, Six Feet Under.

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"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2008 :  11:06:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, diri. What is it with vampire movies and sucking??

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SweetPea
Addled

Canada
184 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2008 :  15:26:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've seen True Blood and enjoyed it for it's low entertainment value. It's like a grown up Twilight to me.

I'm just finishing Breaking Dawn, and I'm not really seeing the hype for it.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2008 :  20:35:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think if you had waited for it to come out the way we did for HP, that might be where the hype came in. It is very easy for us latecomers to move from one book to the next with a nonchalant attitude knowing the whole story is there for us to read at leisure. I don't think we'd feel the same if we had to wait a year between books, though.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2008 :  12:28:02  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

If you'd like to read the entire Badminton episode, Stephanie Meyer has posted it as an outtake on her site here:

http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/twilight_outtakes.html

I also recommend reading the Midnight Sun draft for the story from Edward's viewpoint. You might as well read the draft as it is posted since there's no telling when or if she will actually continue with her intention of publishing it.

Thanks, Siobhan. I was planning to head over to Stephenie Meyer's website after catching up here.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2008 :  16:07:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone here seen the movie yet?
I'm undecided about it. Some of the trailer scenes looked hokey. I know a movie stands little chance of living up to the book. Cinema tickets are so expensive, and time is in short supply. We'll probably miss it.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2008 :  09:54:39  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Has anyone here seen the movie yet?
I'm undecided about it. Some of the trailer scenes looked hokey. I know a movie stands little chance of living up to the book. Cinema tickets are so expensive, and time is in short supply. We'll probably miss it.

I've seen it twice, Siobhan, and I enjoyed it. My husband, who loved the book, found the movie slow, but the kids generally enjoyed it--the girls more than the boys. Based on the trailers, I thought it would be hokier than it was. They actually stuck pretty close to the books. Deleted a few of the high school characters (the boy who played Eric was pretty hilariously over the top, I thought.) Moved around a few scenes and drew out her realization of who Edward was. I thought Robert Pattinson did a pretty good job with the part. I didn't think I would like the actress who played Bella, but she also did pretty well. I loved the casting of Alice and Carlysle and Charlie. The scenerie was gorgeous and the final fight in the dance studio was done well. The special effects were minimal, but still effective for me since they really forcused the movie much more on the tension between Edward and Bella. Obviously, they decided that their audience was young women and girls and so they didn't try to turn it into an action movie.

If you have a dollar theater near you, you could go see it then. I will probably see it a third time--don't ask me why.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2008 :  20:18:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks sunset! I might make more of an effort to see it now. December is just such a full month!
EEEEEEKKKKKK! It's almost December!!!!!!!!!!

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Cour_Delafleur
Confunded

Canada
714 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  02:27:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I saw the movie and I haven't read the books (bu I really want to. I'm fairly positive they'll be under the Christmas tree so I'll wait until then). On the whole I enjoyed it. I thought the story was good, but I found a lot of scenes really awkward and was laughing at some parts that I know weren't meant to be funny. But the eye candy is wonderful. For some reason I think Robert Pattinson is more attractive as a vampire than he is as Cedric Diggory.

"I think she's magic," said Nor.
________"You, you think everything's magic," Manek said. "Stupid girl."
____"Well, everything is," said Nor. - Wicked

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Edited by - Cour_Delafleur on 12/11/2008 02:30:23
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  10:34:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He was awfully good looking as Cedric, though.

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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  12:50:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The more I hear about this movie, the less I want to see it. Female reviewers have been describing it as misogynistic and anti-feminist, which is pretty much what I expected.

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As to the avatar, well, if you girls can all have Alan Rickman...

"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  11:11:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They have said the same about the books because the choices Bella makes are not the ones they want her to make, and therefore feel that Bella as a rolemodel is not politically/socially correct. The fact that she is free to make these choices (which is what I thought feminism was all about) seems to be lost on most of those critics. I'm trying to think of what, in the books, is specifically misogynistic and I'm coming up blank. There are bad things that happen to Bella, but they are not really based on her gender. She just happens to be a fairly unlucky, clutzy person-- lots of "in the wrong place at the wrong time" situations. There's also the behaviour of her peers, but that seemed perfectly normal high school politics to me. Perhaps my reading skills have suffered a severe lapse in comprehension or attention to detail, or my personal experiences have informed my opinions along divergent lines from these critics.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  12:29:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't read Twilight myself or seen the movie, but there is a rough test I use to determine if a work of fiction is sexist - Could Bella be a boy? Would it be believeable for a boy, involved with a vampire girl, to make the same choices and have essentially the same experiences as Bella? If not, that's a red flag.

Take HP for comparison. Hermione's character would still work if she were a boy (excepting the romantic element, of course). So would Ginny's. Even Luna would work as a boy - her dad is every bit as excentric as she is.

So, what do you guys think? Would a fairly unlucky and clutzy teenage, human male and a hot, female vampire work in Twilight?

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Edited by - Theowyn on 12/12/2008 12:32:49
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  15:36:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Having read the whole series, I would say yes, Bella could be Bobby and Edward could be Edwina. The confusion of mixed signals and trying to do the right thing aren't gender biased. Edward does a fair bit of protecting Bella, but she does need it. She's prey who has walked willingly into a world of predators-- she's accident prone and she smells delicious.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  19:25:58  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I find the charges of misogynism strange also. I can understand the sexist charges (though I don't agree with them) since Bella chooses to marry Edward while quite young and her world revolves around Edward from the moment she meets him. However, Edward's world revolves around Bella every bit as much.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  11:05:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That double standard has always bothered me. Feminism/Women's Lib, as I understand it, is supposed to be about having the opportunity to freely make our own choices and determine our own futures. Why is it that there is a segement of the feminist movement that believes that means that every individual can be happy with the same path? Yes, people have gone to great lengths to gain that freedom of self determination for every woman, but to then deny that choosing to marry, or stay at home and raise the children is of value is just as bad as denying the choice to begin with. The true test is to ask whether there was something one truly wanted to do or be, that has not been achieved because of gender constraints.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  12:36:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

That double standard has always bothered me. Feminism/Women's Lib, as I understand it, is supposed to be about having the opportunity to freely make our own choices and determine our own futures. Why is it that there is a segement of the feminist movement that believes that means that every individual can be happy with the same path? Yes, people have gone to great lengths to gain that freedom of self determination for every woman, but to then deny that choosing to marry, or stay at home and raise the children is of value is just as bad as denying the choice to begin with. The true test is to ask whether there was something one truly wanted to do or be, that has not been achieved because of gender constraints.
It's an issue of overcompensation and you find it in any circumstances where social roles, particularly inferior ones, have been engrained in a certain segment of the population. Anyone in the target population group who chooses to conform to those old roles is questioned. Are they really choosing this role or are they simply doing what they've been taught to do? It's a fair question and as long as it doesn't become beligerant, there's no harm in it.

Fiction is judged especially harshly in this regard, because we often look to fiction to promote the ideals we're struggling to achieve in real life. Fiction can show characters overcoming prejudice or stereotypes and provide role models that might not exist in reality.

I agree that when it comes to equal rights for women, this is not an urgent issue. We have plenty of successful, powerful women in the world to act as role models. But there is still wariness regarding women who take on the traditional role of wife and stay-at-home mother, most likely because few men have managed to step outside their traditional roles. If as many men chose to stay home with the kids as do women, I don't think this would still be a sore point; but they don't.

Just look at our recent presidential election. Regardless of what anyone might think of Sarah Palin, had she been a man, the question of balancing the demands of the VP job along with her family's needs would not have come up. It would not have crossed anyone's mind.

That is the problem and it's why Bella gets criticized. She really shouldn't be, because the problem actually lies with Edward as the representative male. Yes, Bella has the right to choose to stay home, but so too should Edward. And yet this possibility is not even on anyone's radar. Stay-at-home dads remain an anomoly in our society and until that changes, there will continue to be tension over sexual roles and charges of sexism when fictional women choose to take on the traditional roles that their male counterparts, for the most part, still fail to even consider.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 12/15/2008 12:46:36
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  15:19:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, there is a difference with Edward, though. He doesn't perform the "bring home the bacon" role. Because the Cullens are independently wealthy, shall we say, he leads a life of doing whatever he wants to (within the boundaries of the treaty) and can/does stay at home with Renesme (that name!). He never tells Bella that she cannot do what she wants to with her life. He is the one who pushes for college. Having a child never entered his mind-- he thought it impossible. So though Edward does fall under the heading of "chief protector," he certainly does not seem to me be misogynistic or sexist.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  16:38:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, if they're all independently wealthy, what the heck; they can spend their days golfing or sailing their yacht or doing whatever vampire families do. If there's no need for a bread-winner, then you're right; it seems silly to argue over who should be one. And yeah, Renesme is a pretty awful name, especially since the poor kid's parents have fairly normal names.

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s.i.n.e. qua non

"Always"

Edited by - Theowyn on 12/15/2008 16:41:40
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2008 :  08:40:04  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I think this is why I agree with Siobhan that the furor over Twilight being sexist makes so little sense. Edward wants Bella to go to school, Bella ends up being as powerful as Edward vampire-wise. Edward doesn't ever ask her to "stay home" and have children. The only decision Bella agrees to is getting married. So what makes that horribly sexist? I wonder if the people complaining just hate romance in general. Bella is terribly smitten with Edward, but as stated, Edward is just as smitten with Bella. But it seems to me that it's impossible to bring logic into most of these type of reactions. I can remember a few really strange overreactions to the HP books--like how Rowling hated fat people.

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U-No-Poo
Addled

133 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  17:40:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Twilight isn't my thing, I found the movie rather boring and what I've read of the books hasn't appealed to me. I think the charges of sexism are aimed more at the sequels than Twilight. Apparently, in the second book Edward leaves Bella and she feels so lost and worthless without him she almost commits suicide just to feel his presence. And all the books are about Bella surrendering everything to be with Edward: school, family, humanity. It's supposed to be this really romantic story, but it's actually quite hollow. Neither Bella or Edward were fleshed out much as characters beyond their obsession for each other. The prose doesn't help, with its annoying reiteration of the various ways in which Edward is a paragon of beauty. It's supremely superficial, as admittedly crushes tend to be at that age, but it shouldn't be held up as an ideal. The way it equates obsession with true love rubs me the wrong way.

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Cour_Delafleur
Confunded

Canada
714 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  22:03:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So I finished the series this morning. I really enjoyed it (I couldn't put it down... I read all four back to back), but there were a few things that bothered me about it. For one thing I don't think the comparisons to HP are anywhere close to being justified - it was farrrr too predictable. Most of the foreshadowing JKR did made me look back at its significance, not recognizing it immediately (for the most part). But with Twilight these hints were more like neon signs pointing me in the direction the story was headed. A lot of the time I could tell when something was significant or was going to be significant.

Also though I wouldn't necessarily call it mysoginistic I can definitely see why others have issues with it. Edward's extreme overprotectiveness would drive me absolutely crazy if I were in Bella's shoes (to the point that it would be a deal-breaker), but that stopped for the most part in the fourth book so I took it to mean that it had more to do with her being human than being a woman.

"I think she's magic," said Nor.
________"You, you think everything's magic," Manek said. "Stupid girl."
____"Well, everything is," said Nor. - Wicked

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2009 :  11:54:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Her clutsiness was also a factor. If something bad could happen it would happen to Bella-- and I don't think that was because she was involved with Edward and his family. I think that was just her lot in life generally. Also, don't lose sight of the fact that Edward is really quite a bit older than Bella and from a completely different generational background (thus, at least partly, his insistance on marriage).

The breakdown she suffered after Edward left was troubling, but then I remembered what I experienced when my first "real" love left and could accept it. Bella and Edward did have an obsessive side, but they were being denied their feelings by everyone (including Edward himself). That kind of denial generally makes for more determination to stay together. The Romeo and Juliet parallel was in full play there, too.

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Cour_Delafleur
Confunded

Canada
714 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2009 :  18:48:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah I agree that her clutziness was part of it too. I read Midnight Sun and that changed my opinion of things a bit. I really wish it hadn't been leaked online. It would have been nice to see the rest of the story from Edward's perspective. I liked being able to read everyone's minds with him. It completely changed my opinion of Jessica, for one thing.

"I think she's magic," said Nor.
________"You, you think everything's magic," Manek said. "Stupid girl."
____"Well, everything is," said Nor. - Wicked

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2009 :  17:01:57  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by U-No-Poo

Apparently, in the second book Edward leaves Bella and she feels so lost and worthless without him she almost commits suicide just to feel his presence. And all the books are about Bella surrendering everything to be with Edward: school, family, humanity. ... The way it equates obsession with true love rubs me the wrong way.

This didn't bother me since I figured she was working on a Romeo and Juliet model, as Siobhan points out. She's not writing Shakespeare, obviously, but I found myself easily able to suspend disbelief and just go with the, to me, enjoyable flow. I also agree that the last book helps Edward's case since it does show he was totally freaked out by how fragile Bella was and had to fight his overprotective tendencies. The third book actually shows that he realizes he needs to do this or he will lose Bella to his jealousy. He doesn't get a free ride.

And Cour, I too really loved Midnight Sun. I agree that I missed a lot that was going on with Edward in the first book. I think Meyer is still planning to finish this and publish it and I fully expect it to sell well. I love the Cullens and we get a lot bigger look at them in Midnight Sun.

I also agree that the "big moments" are not as well hidden in Twilight as in HP. But to me the ending was pretty satisfying in Twilight while HP's ending still bothers me. Meyer wasn't trying to juggle as many elements that all had to come together--although I don't have near the desire to read Twilight fanfiction as I do HP fanfiction. There is still a lot that can be explored in HP land since Rowling's characters were so much more three-dimensional.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
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Posted - 04/16/2009 :  14:11:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I watched the movie last night (Netflix is a wonderful thing). It was better than I thought/feared it would be, but all the same I'm glad I didn't spend cinema entrance to go see it. The high school kids seemed real enough, but the chemistry between Bella and Edward wasn't there. All the earnest staring accomplished was to make it look as though Edward was trying to hypnotize Bella ala Bella Lugosi. Viewers rely on the actors to convey all that the book explains, and that's a big task since so much of the story is from Bella's perspective. While the reader knows all the questions that buzzed around Bella's head for the week Edward was gone, the movie didn't really show it. Not that that is all the actors' fault. The story had to be squashed to fit a movie and something had to go. Perhaps a little more buildup of tension would have been better.

One of the other things that bothered me was the use of voiceover for Bella's internal thought processes at the beginning of the film, the subsequent disappearance of it, then the sudden reappearance at the end. Kind of reminded me of Sarah Conner in Terminator.

There was little character development in the movie so if you hadn't read the books, you were lost. For instance, we don't get to know any of the Cullens in the movie except through their scenes with Bella which are usually rushed. There's no bonding with Alice in the movie as in the books. No explaination of Jasper. Having read the books made for a strange viewing experience, too though. I found knowing so completely what was going to happen for most of the film... odd. Now why that should be,I don't know. The HP films have never the same effect and I know the books far better.

I guess my overall impression of the movie is that it is the Cliff Notes version. It covers all the main points, but not in any depth. While you might scrape by on a short answer test with such knowledge, you'd never make the grade on an essay exam. So if you liked the book, rent the movie from the cheapest source possilbe-- and don't buy it until they do a boxed set of all the movies, if the next ones are worthwhile, that is.

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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  04:21:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Still haven't seen it, but I have seen "Let The Right One In", which is, if you like, the Euro answer to Twilight. As you might expect, it's far more twisted and disturbing. The girl is the vamp this time, and she doesn't mope tormentedly about it. When she kills, she snarls like a dog and laps blood off the ground. She also has a cowed old man act as her "shopper", who goes out and drains innocents for her to feed on so she doesn't have to do it herself. The mortal boy's relationship with her is somewhat ambiguous (it's implied that "she" isn't actually a girl at all, but had something horrible happen to "her" erogenous zones before her transformation). The movie's not for all tastes (It's Swedish, so that means lots of long meaningful pauses, penetrating glances and one-word conversations) but it's beautifully shot and the performances are a revelation. The girl who plays the vampire is a real find, both in her striking looks and in her acting ability. It's her first film and I really hope Hollywood figures out what to do with her.

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Edited by - diricawl on 04/17/2009 04:24:21
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