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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

236 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  10:50:22  Show Profile Send Wizard from Milan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew it! I knew it! I knew it!
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/10/20/j-k-rowling-at-carnegie-hall-reveals-dumbledore-is-gay-neville-marries-hannah-abbott-and-scores-more

I said it several times (not sure I ever said it on these boards).
I did know imagine all of it, although I was tantalizingly close

Unicorn8
Barmy

Germany
319 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  11:09:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now, I really think Ian McKellan should’ve played him. *winks at Diri*

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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

236 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  11:16:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now the question is "was GG gay?"
I think not. I think DD's crush was hopeless to start with
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Jokelly
Barking

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  11:21:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was shocked. I guess I just thought of Dumbledore as asexual. When I saw the headline on MSN all it said was that JKR outs HP character as gay. My first thought was Neville, but then as I think back on the books I think he's been half in love with Hermione since book 1, but finally gave up. Poor boy. But it actually makes more sense for Dumbledore's character.

Won't the bible belt activists, and fanfiction writers, love this!

Current location: Laying low at Lupin's

Edited by - Jokelly on 10/20/2007 11:22:31
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  12:37:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jokelly

I was shocked. I guess I just thought of Dumbledore as asexual.

Me too. His sexual orientation really plays no bearing on the story ... but it is interesting to know after the fact! It made my day, actually. I love the added depth of his character: how he fell in love but was badly burned by it. I doubt he ever came "out of the closet" to anyone, though, even his best friends. Oh, what would Rita Skeeter have written if she found out (and she would have)!

Even through Jo has given her opinion on the matter, the story she actually wrote remains wide open to the interpretation of the reader. If someone wants to believe DD is heterosexual, they still can. The "fast friends" explanation for his relationship with Grindelwald still works, because the love of friendship can be just as strong and important as romantic love. I guess there are many meanings that can be taken from the story.

I always thought Ian McKellan would have been a perfect Dumbledore too!
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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  13:53:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Feels insecure. Unsure of what wink entails. Ponders possibilities.

But yes. Indeed Ian should have played Dumbie, though I'm sure he loved playing Gandalf.

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As to the avatar, well, if you girls can all have Alan Rickman...

"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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Cour_Delafleur
Confunded

Canada
714 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  17:49:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I get RSS feeds from the CBC top headlines (yes, it was a top headline), and when I got this one I burst out laughing. Unfortunately I was in the packed library (it's mid-term season) at the time.

Anyway, I definitely remember reading a while ago that someone thought we was gay (probably you WfM) and I think I brushed it off as unimportant.

I'm glad she told us after the books were done.

"I think she's magic," said Nor.
________"You, you think everything's magic," Manek said. "Stupid girl."
____"Well, everything is," said Nor. - Wicked

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U-No-Poo
Addled

133 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  18:22:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That made me smile. Funny I never thought about it. Maybe now they'll be more young!Albus fic? Please?
Apparently, Neville married Hannah Abbott who became a barmaid for the Leaky Cauldron. She was a prefect, she had a hard time during O.W.L.s and her mother was killed in HBP and left Hogwarts. So she shares performance stress and a tragic family history with Neville. Did JKR always know she would marry Neville whilst writing her character, I wonder.
Also, the night Harry left Privet Drive, Petunia wanted to tell Harry, "I know what you're up against and I hope it turns out okay." Awwww, she should have said.

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Edited by - U-No-Poo on 10/20/2007 18:35:50
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Emmmma
Barmy

293 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  21:57:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oh my, and i had had such a huge crush on dumbledore. another man crossed off my list. now i'll just keep this guy -

Formerly Garside! ;-)
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  22:00:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, this latest on Dumbledore gives "a cornucopia of love" a whole new meaning.

*goes off with potter puppet pals playing in head*

I watched part of SS on Disney last night and kept humming Potter Puppet Pals's "The Mysterious Ticking Noise."

Actually though, I don't see how Dumbledore's personal life is at all important. I guess I have a rather blase attitude. Though, I'm sure, the same people who hated HP because of their fear of witchcraft, can now hate it for striking upon another of their fears. Goes right back to what Jo said about bigotry.
*sigh*



Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
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JKRisSuperior
Mediwizard

USA
694 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  23:35:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting that I'm listening to Johnny Cash's "Ring of Fire" whilst reading this.

I was surprised that it was Dumbledore who was gay. I thought it would be Seamus and Dean.
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Jokelly
Barking

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  00:27:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Emmmma

oh my, and i had had such a huge crush on dumbledore. another man crossed off my list. now i'll just keep this guy -



Who knows, Emmmma, his life partner just might be this guy . You know those pirates do spend a whole lot of time on those ships with no women around.

Current location: Laying low at Lupin's

Edited by - Jokelly on 10/21/2007 00:31:58
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  01:00:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seamus and Dean would have been awesome! But honestly, I just shook my head and shrugged when I heard the news because I find JKR dropping this sort of bombshell at this point to be rather ridiculous and not at all admirable.

DD's sexuality has no bearing on HP, as written, so it comes across as shameless publicity mongering to bring it up months after DH has been published. Headline news, you say, Cour? My, my, what a surprise. Does anyone believe that JKR - who is a master of media manipulation - didn't know exactly what the reaction to her cavalier comment would be?

Maybe she just likes ragging the Religious Right. I admit, it's certainly tempting. But she does a diservice to her own books with this sort of stunt. Once again she is coming between the books and the readers to tell people about something that she couldn't be bothered to write. And this isn't just a personal, subjective opinion on someone's character. This is a hugely contentious issue and she knows it. The religious fanatics are going to be holding book-burnings again, and for what? Something that isn't even in the bloody books!

I think JKR is more interested in activism these days than in writing; which is fine. I'm behind her 100%. But she can make political statements without dragging HP into it. I respect her for speaking out against bigotry, but to use her characters to make her point, sidesteps the real prejudice around us and instead creates a firestorm around her books.

If JKR really wanted to make a statement about homosexuality with her writing then she should have made it in writing. We should have seen Seamus and Dean stealing away to someplace private and seen the other students' reactions. That would have been a far more useful and courageous approach than to simply toss off this news about DD as an afterthought.

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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  02:13:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Woah. Backlash at all, Theo?

From what I heard, Jo dropped the bombshell to the scriptwriters of the films, because they were planning on working in a reference to a girl Dumbledore had once been fond of. After the secret came out, as it were, she had to go to the media with it.

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As to the avatar, well, if you girls can all have Alan Rickman...

"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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Unicorn8
Barmy

Germany
319 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  05:53:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by diricawl

Feels insecure. Unsure of what wink entails. Ponders possibilities.



I just remembered us talking about Michael Gambon and Richard Harris and whether Ian McKellan should/would have played Dumbledore.

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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  10:04:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh. I made that claim on some other internet forums and wondered if you'd hit on my alternate usernames. :)

Anyway, yes I am boring and predictable.

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As to the avatar, well, if you girls can all have Alan Rickman...

"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  10:52:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really don't believe it was an attempt to sensationalise as you suggest Theo. Yes, JKR knows that anything major that she says now about HP will be considered fairly big news, but I think she was simply being honest in answering the question. There's no more necessity to hedge questions, so why not tell what she knows? And let's face it, what would be the point of sensationalising any further. As far as I know book sales haven't dropped off any.

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is about sexual orientation, so the sensationalism is lost on me. Who cares? Why is this one point such a big deal? Only because there are people who have trouble with it. That is not JKR's fault. It should neither change how she sees a character or responds to questions regarding that character. I will continue to think the best of her, regardless of my opinion of DH.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
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Jokelly
Barking

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  12:26:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just wish she would publish the encyclopedia/notes already. In a few interviews she's given conflicting information. I don't think it's purposefully done, but sometimes you forget what you write and try to remember and do it incorrectly, especially if the spotlight's on you and you have thousands of eager fans around hanging on your every word. So I haven't been listening to her interviews anymore because half of the info just creates more plot holes.

Current location: Laying low at Lupin's
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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  12:33:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One thing's for sure: when this percolates out, the last remaining shreds of her Christian fanbase are going to kiss her goodbye.

It's a shame. These things don't really matter in the UK (well to the vast majority anyway) so I doubt she thought she was causing a firestorm.

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As to the avatar, well, if you girls can all have Alan Rickman...

"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  13:27:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What do you mean by Christian fanbase? I'm not trying to be sarky, I really want to know. Because I can't imagine anyone I know being remotely bothered by this, and pretty much everyone I know is Christian. I think it's a term that has different implications in different places though.

I like finding out these little tidbits about the characters. Sure they're unnecessary, but I just think of them as fun facts that don't have to have any bearing on how I interpret the books if I don't want them to (I already had my suspicions about Dumbledore and Grindewald, so in this case it really doesn't impinge on my reading of DH at all). Like Jokelly though, I wish JKR would just go ahead and publish the encyclopedia. She's already contradicted herself a bit in interviews, so I'd like her to have a sit and a think and get it all down on paper first. And if there are maths involved (e.g. for timelines), then maybe get some help? Or a calculator?

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Haggy is (probably not) Cactus!

Edited by - Bee on 10/21/2007 13:28:31
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diricawl
Looney

United Kingdom
1078 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  13:37:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps I should have said "evangelical apologist" fanbase. There are a few traitors to the cause who stick up for her even while their friends and family abandon them or hold them up to scorn. I don't think they'll be able to justify it now.

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As to the avatar, well, if you girls can all have Alan Rickman...

"They don't want the Easter Bunny's power; The children in our generation want Harry's power, and they're getting it." - Laura Mallory
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  15:25:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One thing is for sure: JKR has gotten a huge kick out of springing stuff like this on us late in the game. For a woman who claimed to understand that "people love to be tricked but not conned," she's having a field day with Dumbledore. Just look at how she changed his character in book seven, exposing his previously unimaginable tendencies toward gross manipulation and even coldness toward those whom he's manipulated. I combed through the book for some sort of condemation of his Machiavellian side, but never really found it. That never made sense to me, in context with the rest of the books.

I don't have any problem with Dumlbedore's sexuality at all, but I do agree with Theowyn that it has no bearing on anything other than JKR's desire to be a pro-tolerance activist. Now I wonder if it's part of the reason she treated his transgressions so leniently in book seven, still holding him up as the all-wise white wizard in the end. I always thought she was trying a little too hard in that area, but now I wonder if knowing he was gay and that she wanted to promote tolerance caused her to let him off so easy. Probably not, but I'll always wonder.

Edited by - n/a on 10/21/2007 16:17:47
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  02:26:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by diricawl

Woah. Backlash at all, Theo?

From what I heard, Jo dropped the bombshell to the scriptwriters of the films, because they were planning on working in a reference to a girl Dumbledore had once been fond of. After the secret came out, as it were, she had to go to the media with it.
Whatever happened to everyone being sworn to secrecy? No, I don't buy the idea that she had no choice. Nor do I believe that she is so unsophistocated that she had no idea she would be creating a huge controversy with this. After all of her run-ins with the religious right, she has to have known.

quote:
I don't have any problem with Dumlbedore's sexuality at all, but I do agree with Theowyn that it has no bearing on anything other than JKR's desire to be a pro-tolerance activist. Now I wonder if it's part of the reason she treated his transgressions so leniently in book seven, still holding him up as the all-wise white wizard in the end. I always thought she was trying a little too hard in that area, but now I wonder if knowing he was gay and that she wanted to promote tolerance caused her to let him off so easy. Probably not, but I'll always wonder.
Interesting question, Pixie. Maybe she went easy on DD because he was betrayed by the person he loved. I think that's something she'd have a soft spot for.

What irks me is that if this was important to DD's character, why didn't JKR include it in the books? Rita should have been all over the romance between DD and Grindelwald. Talk about juicy! Aberforth could have confirmed the truth of the situation and then Harry and company could have voiced their (and JKR's) opinions on the matter.

What's more, it would have given us a much more poignant view of DD at Kings Cross. "I was in love, Harry, and I foolishly believed that Gellert loved me in return. I was wrong."

This would have been so much richer and more meaningful than a comment in a Q/A session. It would have made weathering the uproar from the RR worthwhile. As it is, she's invited the controversy without giving us the plot to go along with it. If DD's sexuality was relevant to the story, then JKR should have shown us that and given DD the chance to speak about it for himself.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 10/22/2007 02:27:46
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Jokelly
Barking

USA
1509 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  12:19:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For the most part, the negative comments that I've heard about this revelation haven't been so much that Dumbledore is gay, but of the timing and way she revealed it. Almost like "Why now?" After everything was done and very cavalierly. Personally, I think she revealed it badly. It could have been dealt with better. It's an extremely sensitive subject and wasn't done in a sensitive manner. Most of the non-Potter community I've heard talk about it think it was just done for book sales and publicity. It's hard to combate those perceptions, even though I don't think those are the reasons she did it, because to the "outside" world it really does look like this. If this was another author that I hadn't read in this same situation I would have said the same thing.

I just don't think it was relevant to the story to reveal this at this point. But it also doesn't change my perception of the books. Dumbledore is still the same Dumbledore whether he's gay, straight, bi, or into goats.




Current location: Laying low at Lupin's

Edited by - Jokelly on 10/22/2007 12:22:21
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  12:32:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It doesn't impact the character for me because I had already assumed that a man of his age must have been in love at some point in his long life. Whom he was in love with was and is irrelevant to me.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  15:22:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The fact that JKR had to correct the film scriptwriters first demonstrates that Dumbledore was not written as gay in the books. He wasn't written as anything-sexual, and it doesn't matter. He's eccentric, to be sure, and it may be interesting for some people to think of him as gay (myself included). But yes, JKR botched it. In the end, this will be one of those things I'm going to file away and not pay much attention to, along with the bulk of her other interview comments at this point, because it doesn't add anything to the story. It simply underscores how many things are better left to the reader's interpretation and imagination.

Think about it ... How many of us liked the series better before DH, when we could imagine for ourselves how it might end? I know I did. And although DH was interesting in that it revealed JKR's overall vision, it also eliminated so much of the mystery and the fun we used to have.

So, is Harry Potter like the Venus de Milo: better with a few parts missing? It's getting to that point for me.

Edited by - n/a on 10/22/2007 15:24:11
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Unicorn8
Barmy

Germany
319 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  15:39:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMHO Dumbledore being gay was not included in the books, because it was not of importance to the story. Everything is perfectly understandable without knowing anything about Dumbledore's sexual preference. JKR has a great knowledge of the backstories of each of her characters and a lot of details are not included in the books, because they are not important in order to understand the story or that particular character.
However, the fans keep asking about the characters and also want to know the minor details, so it was more or less only a matter of time until someone would have asked something like "Are there any gay wizards?" or something like that. Then she could either have lied (but why should she have done that?) or revealed the truth about Dumbledore. I think it was a better solution to reveal it now than to reveal it later because then people would have accused her that she only wanted to increase the sales of her books or the interest in the next movie.

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msulizzy11
Addled

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  16:52:43  Show Profile  Click to see msulizzy11's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I have to admit that this topic has thrown me back into the HP Message Board scene.

I also agree with what most everyone on here has said, it doesn't matter. It's awesome to learn new details about ANY of the characters, but it doesn't change a single thing that was written in the books. Plus, IT'S A STORY so all those homophobes and right-wing nuts can get lost!! - imho.

Jo has said over and over that these books are about tolerance, loving thy neighbor, peace and love, blah blah blah, and what are these "fans" doing??! Hate hate hate hate! Makes me sick. {/rant}

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"Not since George Bush decided to invade Iraq over weapons of mass destruction has the world been so engrossed with a fantasy story."
- Sydney Morning Herald July 18, 2007 Re: Harry Potter
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Wicked
Addled

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  20:00:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I remember when I first read the description of Dumbledore way back in SS, I thought hmmmm... a purple cloak and high heeled boots... but then didn't think any more about it since the HP universe is basically an asexual universe.

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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

236 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2007 :  22:58:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by diricawl

One thing's for sure: when this percolates out, the last remaining shreds of her Christian fanbase are going to kiss her goodbye.


Which is astonishing given that you can hardly imagine a more christian book than DH
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2007 :  16:30:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

The fact that JKR had to correct the film scriptwriters first demonstrates that Dumbledore was not written as gay in the books. He wasn't written as anything-sexual, and it doesn't matter. He's eccentric, to be sure, and it may be interesting for some people to think of him as gay (myself included). But yes, JKR botched it. In the end, this will be one of those things I'm going to file away and not pay much attention to, along with the bulk of her other interview comments at this point, because it doesn't add anything to the story. It simply underscores how many things are better left to the reader's interpretation and imagination.
Agreed. The more that is left to the imagination, the more people will be able to relate to any given character.

For instance, let's take a crazy example. Let's say that JKR comes along and says that Hermione's a strict vegetarian and believes that people who eat meat are despicable. It has no bearing on the story, but all of us hamburger lovers will feel alienated from one of our favorite characters.

The more details JKR gives, especially about important character traits, the fewer people will be able to see themselves in the characters.

U8, regarding fans asking about gay wizards, of course JKR shouldn't lie and say that there aren't any. That would be ludicrous. But neither did she have to drop names. All she had to say was that, of course there are gay and lesbian wizards just as there are gay and lesbian Muggles. But since sexual-orientaiton is a very private matter, she won't talk about it and will just leave it to us to guess.

That would have been a lot more fun, as Pixie points out. Personally, I always had my money on Lockhart.

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