St Mungo's
St Mungo's
Home | Profile | Active Topics | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 First Floor.......................Canon Obsessions
 Philosopher to Hallows
 Surprisingly Unimportant
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2007 :  14:21:55  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage Send sunsethill a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We spent so much time analysing every nuance of the books before DH that it's only to be expected that some things we thought would be important actually turned out to not be important after all. A simple one I can think of is the dementors. I fully expected them to be important in the last battle--and one of my favorite pet theories was that a dementor would remove the horcrux from Harry so he wouldn't have to die. Instead, the dementors end up being used more by the Ministry that by Voldemort (although I know that by that time the Ministry is controlled by Voldie).

The one that suprised me, though, was how unimportant in many ways the Order of the Phoenix became. Yes, the fighters at the end came partly from the Order, but the Order doesn't even seem to be the leader of the resistance since Lee Jordan is involved and he wasn't an Order member. We get a whole book called HP and the Order of the Phoenix, and once DD dies, the Order seems to collapse.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non

Unicorn8
Barmy

Germany
319 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2007 :  11:20:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought Fawkes would be more important in DH, but he didn't even appear once.

And the "secret force" behind the locked door in the MoM didn't play a role either.

Order of the Bookmark
Proud Member of S.I.N.E.

"Always"

WWLLD
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2007 :  15:03:34  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn8

I thought Fawkes would be more important in DH, but he didn't even appear once.

And the "secret force" behind the locked door in the MoM didn't play a role either.

Ooh, both of those are good. I certainly expected to see Fawkes again. Apparently, in one of her last interviews, Jo wanted Fawkes to never appear again as some kind of symbolic representation of the end of the era of Dumbledore. I'm not sure we needed the extra symbolism, and what with Fawkes' importance in Harry's success in the chamber and given how Fawkes helped DD in the battle at the ministry, I certainly expected him to have a role to play.

And, yeah, we never really learn about what all those rooms in the Ministry represent. I would have expected to see some repercussions from Ron's attack by the brains, also.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2007 :  15:38:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Viktor Krum. Although he was comical at the wedding, I had hoped to see a Durmstrang come and put up a fight against Voldemort, what with all the talk about international cooperation. Or did he show up for the final battle and I just missed it amid the melee?

Edited by - n/a on 09/16/2007 15:38:27
Go to Top of Page

Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2007 :  15:55:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What surprised me was the whole "not all Slytherins are bad" and "all the houses should work together" (including sorting hat song) setup, which was then basically ignored in the last book. That really p*sses me off, scuse my Klatchian.

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2007 :  15:59:51  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

Viktor Krum. Although he was comical at the wedding, I had hoped to see a Durmstrang come and put up a fight against Voldemort, what with all the talk about international cooperation. Or did he show up for the final battle and I just missed it amid the melee?

I don't remember Krum showing up at the end either. It would have been a nice, easy way to continue the theme of international cooperation, wouldn't it?

I suppose I could add Krum to my very long list of "good--not needing redemption" Slytherins. He doesn't really count as a Slytherin, but, hey, like Starling I'm looking for a few good Slytherins.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

Emmmma
Barmy

293 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2007 :  23:28:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like this topic - I'm still in shock over DH and I don't think I'll recover very easily. I agree with pretty much all the things that have been listed...
How about the curtain of death, where Sirius died? I haven't re-read DH but isn't that another of those things that ended up kind of abandoned by Jo?

Formerly Garside! ;-)
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2007 :  13:31:14  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Emmmma

I like this topic - I'm still in shock over DH and I don't think I'll recover very easily. I agree with pretty much all the things that have been listed...
How about the curtain of death, where Sirius died? I haven't re-read DH but isn't that another of those things that ended up kind of abandoned by Jo?

Ooh, yes, Emmma. I really expected it to be important again in some way--just as all those other things in the Dept. of Mysteries. It seems to me that I discern a bit of a pattern in the books. I think Rowling basically had One and Seven plotted--knew where she wanted to go. Then, with each book in between, she made up neat stuff that really only was important for that book. They sort of stood alone in her mind and she really didn't feel the need to bring those elements into DH, because she had planned the "important" elements from the beginning. Now obviously, there are things in each book that are important to DH, but it's amazing how much isn't.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

Unicorn8
Barmy

Germany
319 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2007 :  10:10:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Emmmma

I like this topic - I'm still in shock over DH and I don't think I'll recover very easily. I agree with pretty much all the things that have been listed...
How about the curtain of death, where Sirius died? I haven't re-read DH but isn't that another of those things that ended up kind of abandoned by Jo?


I really wanted to know more about that veil and I was so sure we would get more information, because I thought that the US cover was showing the MoM and the veil.

I also thought we would get to know why the Marauders (or at least Sirius) stopped trusting Remus before Liyl and James died. They had no problem trusting Peter, but at least Sirius was sure that Remus was the spy and vice versa. I wonder what happened to cause this distrust.

Order of the Bookmark
Proud Member of S.I.N.E.

"Always"

WWLLD
Go to Top of Page

Cour_Delafleur
Confunded

Canada
714 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2007 :  17:40:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
RAB. Yes he was important in finding the locket, but I was sort of expecting him to be the key, or at least be more related to the finding of all the remaining horcruxes.

"I think she's magic," said Nor.
________"You, you think everything's magic," Manek said. "Stupid girl."
____"Well, everything is," said Nor. - Wicked

Order of the Bookmark
Go to Top of Page

Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2007 :  10:47:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The horcrux locations left me a little flat. The trio knew about the locket. Hufflepuff's cup hidden in Bellatrix's vault at Gringott's was a bit, well, uninspired. The actual recovery was pretty good, but, I don't know, Voldemort handing Bella the cup and asking her to keep it for him was rather weak-- especially considering all the pomp he created for the locket.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
Go to Top of Page

Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2007 :  13:22:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

The horcrux locations left me a little flat. The trio knew about the locket. Hufflepuff's cup hidden in Bellatrix's vault at Gringott's was a bit, well, uninspired. The actual recovery was pretty good, but, I don't know, Voldemort handing Bella the cup and asking her to keep it for him was rather weak-- especially considering all the pomp he created for the locket.
You're right. I understand him giving the diary to Lucius. That was a special case because the diary was meant to be given to a student at Hogwarts in order to open the Chamber of Secrets when the time was right. But both the cup and the tiara were not hidden with anything like the care and cleverness that LV used to conceal the Locket. Strange.

Order of the Bookmark

s.i.n.e. qua non

"Always"
Go to Top of Page

Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2007 :  10:16:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But Voldemort probably knew Bella would put it in a vault at Gringotts, which was well-known for its security, so he didn't need to create all the pomp he created for the locket, since Gringotts would do it for him (which indeed it did).

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
Go to Top of Page

Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2007 :  10:46:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's just it, though. These were supposed to be important, nearly holy objects. Yes, the location was supposed to be secret, but why all the importance to the locket's hiding place and not the others. Voldemort was making a statement with the locket-- a very impressive one. It seems as though he either didn't have time to create a shrine for the others, or that he just didn't care by that point. Heck, there wasn't even a spell of protection around the tiara.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
Go to Top of Page

Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2007 :  12:49:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

That's just it, though. These were supposed to be important, nearly holy objects. Yes, the location was supposed to be secret, but why all the importance to the locket's hiding place and not the others. Voldemort was making a statement with the locket-- a very impressive one. It seems as though he either didn't have time to create a shrine for the others, or that he just didn't care by that point. Heck, there wasn't even a spell of protection around the tiara.
Yes, it's the inconsistency that's strange. But it sure was convenient that the one horcrux that had truly impressive protection around it just happened to be the one that DD managed to find.

Order of the Bookmark

s.i.n.e. qua non

"Always"
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2007 :  10:09:47  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
But it sure was convenient that the one horcrux that had truly impressive protection around it just happened to be the one that DD managed to find.

Yes, since DD never wanted to give Harry any actual, you know, training--only information. I guess he knew that Super!Hermione would always save Harry's bacon.

I thought of another thing that was surprisingly unimportant--Snape's speech to Harry at the end of HBP. Snape clearly told Harry that he would need to learn Occlumency and wordless magic or he would never defeat Voldemort. Harry did neither--in fact, NOT doing Occlumency was important--and still defeated Voldie. Now, this would make sense if Snape was a baddie who was trying to harm Harry. But why have this very dramatic speech from Snape, the one who desperately wants Harry to succeed, when it is going to mean absolutely nothing to Harry's success?

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2007 :  17:15:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
in fact, NOT doing Occlumency was important


Not quite. He finally got the hang of Occlumency, which means he could shut it off when he wanted to and could let himself see what he wanted to see. He can't do it at the beginning of DH, but he does learn. I think this is what Snape wanted to teach him: not to block it out completely, but to let it happen when Harry wanted it to happen.

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
Go to Top of Page

Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2007 :  21:55:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Occulmency seems to be one of those things that is difficult to explain how to do. You can say what it is, and sort of describe what should happen, but really it comes down to just doing it. It may be like teaching someone to meditate. Fairly easy to do once one figures out how to get there, but the steps vary from individual to individual as well as the results/experience. Friction and lack of trust between student and teacher are only a hindrance. Both sides end up feeling like there's a lack of effort on the part of the other.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  11:21:15  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Starling
Not quite. He finally got the hang of Occlumency, which means he could shut it off when he wanted to and could let himself see what he wanted to see. He can't do it at the beginning of DH, but he does learn. I think this is what Snape wanted to teach him: not to block it out completely, but to let it happen when Harry wanted it to happen.

I think I agree and disagree with this, Starling. Yes, Harry was able to open the connection and close it when he wanted to, because Voldie was unaware that it had opened again. I guess maybe Harry had learned how to get into and out of Voldie's mind when he wanted to. In OotP, Snape was trying to teach Harry to block his mind and not let anyone in when they wanted to get in. Voldie was able to send Harry visions in OotP, and Snape was able to read Harry's intentions when they were dueling at the end of HPB. I'm not sure Harry was able to ever do that form of Occlumency. But Harry never needed to really duel Voldie, which was surprising. He just needed to do his trusty expelliarmus and let the Elder Wand kick up a fit at not being used by it's owner.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2007 :  13:19:55  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had another thought on this while brushing my teeth. Could we make the point that DD left informing Harry until the very end--a task that Snape almost was unable to perform--because Harry hadn't mastered one form of Occlumency? If Tom had figured out that Harry was a horcrux, he would have never killed him. And DD wanted Tom to kill Harry so that Harry's death would protect others from Tom. If Harry had learned Occlumency, DD could have chosen a less risky way to inform him of his need to die.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

Unicorn8
Barmy

Germany
319 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2007 :  08:11:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am not sure if Dumbledore would have done that even if Harry had learned Occlumency. After all, Snape was a brillant Occlumens and Dumbledore still outright refused to tell him where he was going during Harry's sixth year, because DD didn't want to spill his secrets to someone who was so close to Voldemort all the time.

Order of the Bookmark
Proud Member of S.I.N.E.

"Always"

WWLLD
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2007 :  15:15:28  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn8

I am not sure if Dumbledore would have done that even if Harry had learned Occlumency. After all, Snape was a brillant Occlumens and Dumbledore still outright refused to tell him where he was going during Harry's sixth year, because DD didn't want to spill his secrets to someone who was so close to Voldemort all the time.

I need to get my copy of DH back from my daughter! I'm having trouble remembering when in the time-line DD told Snape that Harry needed to die. Was it portrait!DD that told him that, or was it from a conversation before he killed DD? And if it was portrait!DD, can we tell when the information comes to Snape?

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2007 :  18:41:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He told Snape later on the same night that Hagrid overheard Snape and him arguing in the forest - so sometime after Chistmas during HBP.

Order of the Bookmark

s.i.n.e. qua non

"Always"

Edited by - Theowyn on 10/10/2007 17:22:48
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2007 :  11:16:11  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn8

I am not sure if Dumbledore would have done that even if Harry had learned Occlumency. After all, Snape was a brillant Occlumens and Dumbledore still outright refused to tell him where he was going during Harry's sixth year, because DD didn't want to spill his secrets to someone who was so close to Voldemort all the time.

But this can't be the case, Uni, since DD told Snape around Christmas of HBP that Harry had to die (as Theo so kindly pins the time line for us). He doesn't give Snape all the information about the horcruxes, which makes it look like he doesn't really trust Snape. But he gives him the MOST important piece of information--that Harry has to be a sacrificial death to destroy the last horcrux. He must have trusted Snape and his abilities at Occlumency incredibly. Not telling him about the other horcruxes seems to be, then, a case of DD only wanting to give information to the exact people who need it exactly when they need it. Snape's job wasn't the other Horcruxes. His job was getting the sword and the final information to Harry only after Harry has dealt with the job DD gave Harry.

Something else that was surprisingly unimportant to me was the fact that Ginny was possessed by Tom Riddle in CoS. We get a little moment of fellow-feeling with Harry in OotP from it, but nothing more. I fully expected Ginny's possession by Voldemort to contribute something to the final resolution, but instead Ginny stayed uninvolved and unimportant. Poor thing couldn't even make an appearance in the Epilogue.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2007 :  14:13:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Ginny on the platform with Harry, sending their sons off to Hogwarts?
Go to Top of Page

Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2007 :  17:25:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

Wasn't Ginny on the platform with Harry, sending their sons off to Hogwarts?
I'll have to go back and check this, but for the life of me I can't remember her saying a single word if she was there.

I agree that DD definitely operated on a need to know basis. It wasn't a matter of trust, per se. He just never told anyone anything unless it was absolutely necessary - and often not even then.

Order of the Bookmark

s.i.n.e. qua non

"Always"
Go to Top of Page

Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2007 :  18:31:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
She was there, but completely insignificant.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  12:12:05  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

She was there, but completely insignificant.

Glad to have that confirmed. I knew she had no interaction of any significance with the Golden Trio. I wasn't sure she was even there. Poor insignificant Ginny. You had so much potential.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page

Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  12:51:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps that should have been the title-- Harry Potter and the Unrealised Potential, certainly would fit with what many of us feel.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
Go to Top of Page

Unicorn8
Barmy

Germany
319 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2007 :  13:26:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ginny was there but she didn't say much. I think she said something like "He'll /They'll be fine" when the Hogwarts Express departs.

Order of the Bookmark
Proud Member of S.I.N.E.

"Always"

WWLLD
Go to Top of Page

sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2007 :  17:05:28  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Perhaps that should have been the title-- Harry Potter and the Unrealised Potential, certainly would fit with what many of us feel.

Yes! The prefect title for the book. I'll add that to "The Neverending Camp-out" as necessary shorthand for DH.

Order of the Bookmark
Member HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e qua non
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
St Mungo's © 2010 Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000
HP Galleries Wing at St Mungo's is in no way affiliated with JK Rowling, her publishers, Warner Brothers, any of its partners within the Harry Potter franchise, or any religious or healthcare institution.