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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/13/2007 :  13:21:03  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage Send sunsethill a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just finished reading PS/SS aloud to my kids and noticed all the themes and things that were foreshadowing things that happened in DH. Jo has said that she had DH plotted from the beginning, and I think that is very apparent when one reads the first book. It might be fun to figure out what set ups from which book were paid off in DH.

From PS/SS, I can think of several things:

1. The Mirror of Erised--both Harry wanting to see his parents, which he does with the Ring in DH, and what Dumbledore sees in the mirror is answered in DH.

2. The dragon that Harry hears about on his first trip to Gringotts is used to free the Trio from Gringotts in DH.

3. The hat wanting to put Harry in Slytherin is shown to be a result of the horcrux, since Harry himself shows so few Slytherin tendencies in his own character throughout the rest of the series.

4. Dumbledore addresses the issue of why Snape protects Harry even though Harry knows Snape hates him. DD fudges the answer, apparently out of respect for Snape's privacy. This also allows Snape and Harry to fail to ever come to any sort of understanding, since Harry doesn't truly understand the reason for Snape's hatred of James until DH.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 09/13/2007 :  18:56:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is a great topic, but the flip-side of foreshadowing is the "DH Disconnect", the things we were told/shown in previous books that were contradicted or ignored in DH. We might as well list those here, too.

1) I think that number 4 above falls into the Disconnect category.

In PS, DD tells Harry that the reason Snape saved his life and protected him all year was because he owed a life debt to James. Now, I don't for a moment believe that Snape ever thought he owed James such a debt. But even if he did, this clearly was NOT the reason he was protecting Harry! DH proved this to be a bald-faced lie on DD's part and a completely unnecessary one. Granted, DD couldn't tell Harry the whole truth, but why not simply say, "Professor Snape is a teacher at this school and would do all in his power to protect every child at Hogwarts regardless of his personal feelings." This was likely true and it wouldn't have prejudiced Harry the way "James saved his life" did. All this from the man who would later assure Harry, "I will, of course, not lie."

Far from respecting Snape's privacy, DD's lie ran roughshod over it. DD gave Harry a false understanding of the whole werewolf incident which was entirely unfair to Snape. How could DD do something as shabby as to reveal such a painful incident in Snape's past and to do so in such a one-sided manner that it made James out to be a shining hero and Snape an ungrateful git? Did DD hate Snape that much?

Or could it be that JKR originally DID intend for this to be the reason Snape protected Harry? Was SS/LE added later? If not, why would DD tell such a damaging lie? Harry spent the next year convinced that his dad was some great hero and that Snape should be grateful to him. This only helped to spur on the animosity between Snape and Harry and gained the light side nothing.

As for foreshadowing...

1) In CoS, Harry's innocent, "LV put a part of himself in me?" followed by DD's, "I believe so," means soooooo much more after DH. It is our first reference to the horcrux in Harry. We also know that DD knew at this point that Harry would have to die.


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U-No-Poo
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Posted - 09/13/2007 :  20:48:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
JKR must have known about SS/LE already because it is in PS that Voldemort says that he had no intention of killing Lily at first.

My sister didn't believe the whole Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory until I showed her that line from CoS. It certainly sends shivers down one's spine, doesn't it? Gosh, and I thought that was more a hint from JKR than one from Dumbledore, because the idea of DD knowing that Harry was a Horcrux and not telling him was too horrible.

Another thing that I had hoped would be followed through in DH and wasn't was Ron's skill at chess, except for his confusing Hermione with the technical term for the tower.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/13/2007 :  21:27:58  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by U-No-Poo

JKR must have known about SS/LE already because it is in PS that Voldemort says that he had no intention of killing Lily at first.

Another thing that I had hoped would be followed through in DH and wasn't was Ron's skill at chess, except for his confusing Hermione with the technical term for the tower.

I remember Harry hearing what happens to his parents when around Dementors, but I'm having brain cramp, U-No-Poo, remembering when Lily's death is mentioned in PS/SS--we read the book out loud over several months.

And I agree. I really wanted Ron's chess abilities to actually mean something and have some results past PS/SS. It would have helped so much to balance out the Trio a little more if Ron had shown some ability for strategy in real life.

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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

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Posted - 09/13/2007 :  21:49:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn

This is a great topic, but the flip-side of foreshadowing is the "DH Disconnect", the things we were told/shown in previous books that were contradicted or ignored in DH. We might as well list those here, too.

1) I think that number 4 above falls into the Disconnect category.

In PS, DD tells Harry that the reason Snape saved his life and protected him all year was because he owed a life debt to James. Now, I don't for a moment believe that Snape ever thought he owed James such a debt. But even if he did, this clearly was NOT the reason he was protecting Harry! DH proved this to be a bald-faced lie on DD's part and a completely unnecessary one. Granted, DD couldn't tell Harry the whole truth, but why not simply say, "Professor Snape is a teacher at this school and would do all in his power to protect every child at Hogwarts regardless of his personal feelings." This was likely true and it wouldn't have prejudiced Harry the way "James saved his life" did. All this from the man who would later assure Harry, "I will, of course, not lie."

Far from respecting Snape's privacy, DD's lie ran roughshod over it. DD gave Harry a false understanding of the whole werewolf incident which was entirely unfair to Snape. How could DD do something as shabby as to reveal such a painful incident in Snape's past and to do so in such a one-sided manner that it made James out to be a shining hero and Snape an ungrateful git? Did DD hate Snape that much?

Or could it be that JKR originally DID intend for this to be the reason Snape protected Harry? Was SS/LE added later? If not, why would DD tell such a damaging lie? Harry spent the next year convinced that his dad was some great hero and that Snape should be grateful to him. This only helped to spur on the animosity between Snape and Harry and gained the light side nothing.


I think the subplot changed between PS and DH. I would not read much into it. It seems unlikely that SS-LE relationship was added later, the whole Snape overhearing the prophecy is too ingrained in the core of the books (although we don't learn about it until much later).
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U-No-Poo
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Posted - 09/14/2007 :  08:44:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I remember Harry hearing what happens to his parents when around Dementors, but I'm having brain cramp, U-No-Poo, remembering when Lily's death is mentioned in PS/SS--we read the book out loud over several months.

Voldemort tells Harry that his mother needn't have died. She died trying to protect him. This is what prompts Harry to ask Dumbledore later on why Voldemort wanted to kill him.

This might be slightly OT, but what things in the Azkaban movie foreshadow stuff in the last two books? There's Snape's protectiveness, but I can't think of anything else. That whole conversation with Lupin about Harry finding his parents within him didn't come to much either.



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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/14/2007 :  12:01:21  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by U-No-Poo
Voldemort tells Harry that his mother needn't have died. She died trying to protect him. This is what prompts Harry to ask Dumbledore later on why Voldemort wanted to kill him.

Ah, yes, now I remember. Thanks.

quote:
Or could it be that JKR originally DID intend for this to be the reason Snape protected Harry? Was SS/LE added later? If not, why would DD tell such a damaging lie? Harry spent the next year convinced that his dad was some great hero and that Snape should be grateful to him. This only helped to spur on the animosity between Snape and Harry and gained the light side nothing.

I wanted to think about this for a while. It dawned on me, though, that Jo must have planned, from the beginning, Snape's death scene where he asks to have one last look into Harry's eyes. I think this for two reasons. First, non-canonically, Jo got all weird when asked about whether Harry having Lily's eyes was important. She refused to answer and that led to all kinds of speculation on what wonderful magical ability related to the eyes. Secondly, in the books Harry learns almost nothing about his mother. In PS/SS, he learns that his mom's wand was good for charms, and that he has her eyes. Later, he learns she was head girl and good at potions, but consistently, from PS/SS through the end, about the only thing he learns is that he has her eyes. And the only reason that is important is to set up the reason Snape has such a tortured relationship with Harry.

I think Jo wanted Snape's death scene to have maximum impact by hiding his relationship with Lily until the very end--and this led to major plotting problems throughout the series, beginning with this scene in PS/SS between DD and Harry. I don't think she was thinking about how misleading it was to not mention Harry's mother to Harry, plot and character-wise. She was just thinking of "hiding" her big surprise. This also led to other plot weirdnesses as Harry learns a lot about James and asks questions about James, but never seems to ask about Lily or care to learn about her.

Another foreshadowing of DH in PS/SS that I thought of last night is the fact that in PS/SS, Voldie breaks into Gringotts to steal something that can make him immortal, while in DH, the Trio breaks into Gringotts where Voldie has stored something that keeps him immortal. What a perfect example of Voldie's arrogance. He was able to break into Gringotts no problem in PS/SS, but he doesn't think anyone else can accomplish it, so he leaves the cup in Bellatrix's vault.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/14/2007 :  12:10:29  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by U-No-Poo
This might be slightly OT, but what things in the Azkaban movie foreshadow stuff in the last two books? There's Snape's protectiveness, but I can't think of anything else. That whole conversation with Lupin about Harry finding his parents within him didn't come to much either.

It took me a minute to figure out, U-No-Poo, that great minds run in the same vein. I asked basically this exact question--although your question is a little broader--on a new thread I opened in the movie forum area. I was wondering what the thing was that gave Jo chills when she saw the movie as having a lot of foreshadowing for later. Starling agreed with you that it might be Snape's protectiveness during the Shrieking Shack incident.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 09/14/2007 :  14:04:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

quote:
Or could it be that JKR originally DID intend for this to be the reason Snape protected Harry? Was SS/LE added later? If not, why would DD tell such a damaging lie? Harry spent the next year convinced that his dad was some great hero and that Snape should be grateful to him. This only helped to spur on the animosity between Snape and Harry and gained the light side nothing.

I think Jo wanted Snape's death scene to have maximum impact by hiding his relationship with Lily until the very end--and this led to major plotting problems throughout the series, beginning with this scene in PS/SS between DD and Harry. I don't think she was thinking about how misleading it was to not mention Harry's mother to Harry, plot and character-wise. She was just thinking of "hiding" her big surprise. This also led to other plot weirdnesses as Harry learns a lot about James and asks questions about James, but never seems to ask about Lily or care to learn about her.
I can understand not mentioning Lily, but why should DD go out of his way to reveal that James saved Snape's life? While this works well in the context of PoA, it ultimately plays no role in the denouement of the series, so in hindsight it seems strange for DD to tell Harry this. It was quite a counterproductive lie. Hmm... Maybe this is foreshadowing that DD is an arse.

Foreshadowing in PoA Movie: I think it must be Snape. I expected it to be Remus's comment that Lily saw the best in people, but we actually don't get that in DH, so yeah, Snape.

More foreshadowing... from GoF, Moody's trunk is a larger version of Hermione's purse of holding and of course, that's where we get the 'Gleam of Triumph'.

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U-No-Poo
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Posted - 09/15/2007 :  06:59:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of the things I was looking forward to in DH was Harry's inevitable "Now YOU shut up, Voldy, and listen to ME." We had foreshadowing of that in CoS when Harry tells Riddle how pathetic he is, but on all the rest of their encounters Harry doesn't except for outbursts like "That's a lie!" or "I won't!". In the OotP movie we get a bit of that, which I liked, but in the books we had to wait for DH for the great smackdown. "Try for a little remorse." Awesome.

*Follows sunsethill's directions for further Azkaban talk*

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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/15/2007 :  14:06:10  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by U-No-Poo

One of the things I was looking forward to in DH was Harry's inevitable "Now YOU shut up, Voldy, and listen to ME." We had foreshadowing of that in CoS when Harry tells Riddle how pathetic he is, but on all the rest of their encounters Harry doesn't except for outbursts like "That's a lie!" or "I won't!". In the OotP movie we get a bit of that, which I liked, but in the books we had to wait for DH for the great smackdown. "Try for a little remorse." Awesome.]

I love the line about remorse, too, U-No-Poo. And Harry's attempt to get Voldie to acknowledge the state of his soul was very reminiscent of how DD talked to "Tom" during their confrontation at the end of OotP.

quote:
I can understand not mentioning Lily, but why should DD go out of his way to reveal that James saved Snape's life? While this works well in the context of PoA, it ultimately plays no role in the denouement of the series, so in hindsight it seems strange for DD to tell Harry this. It was quite a counterproductive lie. Hmm... Maybe this is foreshadowing that DD is an arse.

I think this may have also been a case of Jo setting up misdirection. Remember how DD tells Harry that James and Severus are like Harry and Draco. And, of course, we all assumed that meant that James corresponded to Harry and Severus to Draco. Turns out, based on SWM, that the correspondence was actually flipped. This was a pretty interesting development at the time. But I don't know what the purpose of this ultimately was. Because, as you point out, what DD tells Harry about James and Severus just gave Harry a totally skewed perspective of the whole thing and ensured that Harry and Severus stayed at logger heads. Could we make a case that DD (or Jo) thought that it was ultimately important for Harry not to trust Snape? Did DD maybe think that Severus would be safer and more effective if their enmity stayed strong?

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Theowyn
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Posted - 09/15/2007 :  22:58:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

quote:
I can understand not mentioning Lily, but why should DD go out of his way to reveal that James saved Snape's life? While this works well in the context of PoA, it ultimately plays no role in the denouement of the series, so in hindsight it seems strange for DD to tell Harry this. It was quite a counterproductive lie. Hmm... Maybe this is foreshadowing that DD is an arse.
I think this may have also been a case of Jo setting up misdirection. Remember how DD tells Harry that James and Severus are like Harry and Draco. And, of course, we all assumed that meant that James corresponded to Harry and Severus to Draco. Turns out, based on SWM, that the correspondence was actually flipped. This was a pretty interesting development at the time. But I don't know what the purpose of this ultimately was. Because, as you point out, what DD tells Harry about James and Severus just gave Harry a totally skewed perspective of the whole thing and ensured that Harry and Severus stayed at logger heads. Could we make a case that DD (or Jo) thought that it was ultimately important for Harry not to trust Snape? Did DD maybe think that Severus would be safer and more effective if their enmity stayed strong?
I think a case could be made for this if it hadn't been for the Occlumency lessons and if DD didn't spend half his time telling Harry that Snape is utterly trustworthy. With the Occlumency lessons especially, it's clear that DD expected Harry and Snape to put aside their differences "for the greater good" and was disappointed that they failed to do so.

I actually like the line about Severus and James being like Harry and Draco. This is an honest statement by DD and it doesn't substantially prejudice Harry. He already knows that Snape and his dad hated each other. That Harry believes Snape=Draco and he=James is a legitimate mistake that plays out wonderfully when the reverse is proven to be true. But this is all innocent and understandable. I don't get the feeling that DD was trying to mislead Harry. It was just an old man's remeniscence. But when DD tells Harry about James saving Severus, he intentionally lies and misrepresents the whole situation. I can think of no defensible reason for him to do this.


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Unicorn8
Barmy

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Posted - 09/16/2007 :  11:16:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Foreshadowing in PoA Movie: I think it must be Snape. I expected it to be Remus's comment that Lily saw the best in people, but we actually don't get that in DH, so yeah, Snape.


I also thought immediately of Remus' comment. I think we get some hints on it in DH, when Lily refuses to really believe Snape would become a DE until he calls her mudblood.

More foreshadowing in the PoA movie: When Snape throws himself between the trio and Were-Lupin in order to protect the students.




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msulizzy11
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Posted - 09/24/2007 :  16:23:20  Show Profile  Click to see msulizzy11's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I sort of just skimmed the above posts, sorry. Tired.

But I did want to say that in PS (I think) Petunia says something about "that boy" and her sister and it's quite ambiguous whether she means James oooor Snape! I just re-read from Book 1 to (half of) Book 5 and when she said that it stuck out for me that she could have meant Snape in the playground because now we know she'd met him.

I also think that emphasizing the significance of James saving Snape is very important foreshadowing so we understand Wormtail's Silver Hand Incident after he is in a life-debt to Harry. Additionally, the Trio saved Draco's life twice in DH so it's a nice continuation of the life-debt issue. We are to assume that in future, Baby!Malfoy will be indebted to Baby!Potter-Weasleys.

Do I hear fanfic scribblings?

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Starling
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Posted - 09/27/2007 :  10:18:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
She calls him "that awful boy", and there was speculation for ages that she might have meant Snape. That surprised me, I automatically assumed she meant James.

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Unicorn8
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Posted - 10/05/2007 :  11:31:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Same here. I would never have guessed that Lily and Snape knew each other before going to Hogwarts.


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Theowyn
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Posted - 10/07/2007 :  18:58:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was certain that Snape was "that awful boy" right from the start. The fact that Harry makes a point of saying, "If you're talking about my father, why don't you say his name?" made me very suspicious.

On top of that, Lily only started dating James in their 7th year, so there really wouldn't have been any opportunity for Petunia to overhear James as a "boy", awful or otherwise.

Perhaps the most subtle (and depressing) bit of forshadowing came in OotP when Snape arrives at 12GP to see Harry about the Occlumency lessons. Harry and Ron are playing chess and Mrs. Weasely pokes her head in.

MW: "Harry dear,... Professor Snape would like a word with you."
HP: "Squash him - squash him, he's only a pawn, you idiot. Sorry Mrs. Weasley, what did you say."

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Edited by - Theowyn on 10/07/2007 18:59:25
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sunsethill
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Posted - 10/10/2007 :  11:04:38  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Perhaps the most subtle (and depressing) bit of forshadowing came in OotP when Snape arrives at 12GP to see Harry about the Occlumency lessons. Harry and Ron are playing chess and Mrs. Weasely pokes her head in.

MW: "Harry dear,... Professor Snape would like a word with you."
HP: "Squash him - squash him, he's only a pawn, you idiot. Sorry Mrs. Weasley, what did you say."

I remember that, and I agree that it was a case of Ron's occasional ability to predict the future. I wish Rowling would have done something a little more with this aspect of Ron's characterization. Snape was the ultimate pawn, and I guess Rowling realized this even if she didn't like her pawn that much.

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Unicorn8
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Posted - 10/13/2007 :  13:30:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is really amazing how good Harry and Ron are at predicting the future when they are just joking around.

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