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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2006 :  01:12:12  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I don't think that said engorgement really requires a spell. Plenty of things is a far more mundane (but exciting) nature work just as well (unless you're 80 in which case a blue pill does the job).

Blustery and a fire? Are you trying to set fire to the forest after a long, hot summer? Why not a slight northerly breeze (for you northern hemispherians).
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2006 :  12:17:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*Quickly adds a set of periodic rain showers to the weather charm*

Better?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  06:24:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I say to and then I wave this and turn him into fritters.

Newguise xxx
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  19:06:58  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure about these rain showers, but fortunately I bought my umbrella so I guess it'll all work out.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  22:57:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL Nuggy - Nice Spam Fritters. Makes me want to go all Monty Pythony - the only drawback to being female is you can't say things like "I fart in his generrrral direction, I wave my private parts at his aunties".. I mean I guess you can, but it doesn't really work.

Hmm - does Snape have aunties? Who cares?

Since we've gotten totally off track, I'm going to go back over this fabulous thread and see if there are any unanswered questions.

One, I know is Pixie's idea that Snape sent the LeStranges after the Longbottoms to see if Voldemort was really vanquished.

I don't really get this anyway - why were the Longbottoms tortured? Yes, they were on the "list" of potential parents of the child who could defeat Voldemort but.. Voldemort chose to attack the Potters. What would Neville's parents know about that? How would they have any information about what happened at Godrick's Hollow?

So we can agree that Snape was the most likely person to have directed Bella and her spouse towards the Longbottoms but what information would he (or anyone else) hope to gain by doing so?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2006 :  20:51:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe the Death Eaters were desperate and disorganized in the days immediately following Voldemort's disappearance. I don't think they knew precisely what information they were looking for, but given the circumstances surrounding the Dark Lord's demise, Snape could have felt that the prophecy provided the best (albeit very weak) lead about where to look. The Lestranges were really grasping at straws when they attacked the Longbottoms. That's why they continued to torture and interrogate the Longbottoms even after their minds were gone. They were desperate to flush out something, anything, that might cast light on what had happened to their master.

Do you think that part of the reason Bella despises Snape so much is because he suggested they target the Longbottoms? After all, Bella and Co. were caught red-handed at the scene of the attack. Perhaps she holds him responsible for the twelve years she spent in Azkaban.

This is really taking it to extremes, but do you think it's possible that Snape was playing a double-game when he sent the Lestranges after the Longbottoms? On one hand, If they succeeded and actually acquired some useful information about Voldemort's disappearance and how to rescue him, Snape would benefit by staying in good standing with the Dark Lord. On the other hand, if the Lestranges failed or if they learned that Volemort was in fact truly defeated, Snape would then be free and clear to ally himself with Dumbledore. In the latter case, it would definitely be better for Snape if the Lestranges ended up in Azkaban. So perhaps he let them torture Frank and Alice for a reasonable amount of time, then when he was satisfied that no information of value was forthcoming, he alerted the authorities and had them captured. Or perhaps he simply set up the Lestranges to be captured and sent to Azkaban, just to get them out of his hair (and everyone else's). In any case, he sacrified Frank and Alice Longbottom to serve his own ends. That makes me shudder.

Phineas Nigellus once said to Harry: "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." Severus Snape is the quintessential Slytherin. He is brave and takes risks, yes, but when the chips are down, he saves himself.

I think that's earned him a great big dart on the conk.

*aims carefully*

*throws*

Yessss! Finally!

Slushy, some Tequila please, with salt and lemon! YeeeeHa! I finally got him!
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2006 :  01:23:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice shot Pixie!

However, I'm sorry to say I must rain on your very admirable Snape-despising parade. I think this quote from HBP convinces me that Snape did not, in fact, send the LeStranges after the Longbottoms:

"Well, continue Bellatrix," said Snape. "Why is it that you do not trust me?"

"A hundred reasons!" she said loudly, striding out from behind the sofa to slam her glass upon the table. "Where to start! Where were you when the Dark Lord fell? Why did you never make any attempt to find him when he vanished?..."

So apparently, Snape did not see Bellatrix or send her to interrogate the Longbottoms after Voldemort's fall. Now it is possible that he sent the message through a 3rd party and was (for some reason) unwilling to reveal his part in this but.. I'm afraid it's more likely that he did not, in fact, instruct Bella & Co to find and torture Neville's parents looking for information.

Which begs the question - who DID?

Bella says of Voldemort (in the Pensieve scene in GoF) "...he will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!" So does that mean they were sent by someone who was not a Death Eater? Because JKR said (somewhere) that they were definitely sent..

Oh my god.

I've just re-read the Pensieve scene and I'm wondering if Dumbledore sent the LeStranges after the Longbottoms. I know it sounds bizarre but it would certainly explain his wierd guilty behavior in the Cave in HBP - watching people you know be tortured because you had let the wrong information slip must be the ultimate guilt-trip.

Who sent Bellatrix after Neville's parents?
Someone who knew the contents of the first half of the Prophecy.

A Death-Eater?
If so, Bella is deliberately lying when she says "We alone were faithful." And Bella doesn't strike me as a cunning person.

Who knew of the Prophecy?
Snape, Voldemort, Dumbledore.

Possibly other people?
Maybe but not likely.

Is it possible Dumbledore revealed the contents of the prophecy to Peter, thinking him still a loyal Order member? Or that he could possibly have been fooled into thinking Bellatrix was ever on his side?

Am I crazy? Probably.

Here's JKR's quote:
Section: Rumours
The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him

No, they werenít, they were very definitely sent after Nevilleís parents. I canít say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.


Crap. That leave us nowhere. Either someone else knew of the Prophecy and sent Bella along or it was Dumbles or... Shoot. I'm lost.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2006 :  01:45:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, let me try to take a logical approach here.

My assumptions:
  • The Lestranges were sent after the Longbottoms.
  • Whoever sent them knew of the first half of the Prophecy
  • They were not sent by Snape (per Bella's HBP rant)
  • They were not sent by Lucius (per Voldemort's chiding of him in GoF) or any of the other DEs (per Bella)


So that leaves me with - The Lestranges and Barty Jr were sent after the Longbottoms by someone who was not a follower of Voldemort. Huh.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2006 :  04:33:02  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Did anyone else in the pub hear the prophesy? (It was in a pub, wasn't it? Or am I just making this up as I go along?)
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2006 :  12:21:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, it was upstairs at the "bad" pub in Hogsmeade, behind a closed door with only DD and Trelawny present. But Snape was listening in... and got caught. I think it would be pretty tacky for JKR to come up with a second eavesdropper at this point, don't you? Especially one with ties to the DEs. So I think we can assume that at the time the prophesy was made only Snape and DD knew of it. I wonder how prophecies get entered into the Hall of Prophecies? Is there an official recorder and would DD have had to related it to them/it? Could it be someone in the MoM knew of this? I'm snatching at straws here.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2006 :  17:21:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Is it possible Dumbledore revealed the contents of the prophecy to Peter, thinking him still a loyal Order member? Or that he could possibly have been fooled into thinking Bellatrix was ever on his side?


I would say no and hell no to these suggestions. It's an intriguing theory though! After all, who else could it possibly be? It's not Snape, it's not another DE, and I agree that to have another eavesdropper would be a real *eyeroll* of a plot device. Could it... somehow... possibly... be Dumbledore? It makes one hell of a guilty secret for him to go nutso over in the cave...

Order of the Bookmark
Purveyor of Fine Peebles
Haggy is (probably not) Cactus!
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2006 :  00:40:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I would agree with you Bee, I was more trying to find some way out of it.

I would also say it kind of fits nicely if Dumbledore has a guilty secret. As I started up in the Faith & HP thread, I think Harry has always had a kind of worship of DD. I think that Faith will be tested in book 7. I think there has to be some kind of secret revealed that will shock Harry and shake his faith in DD's goodness.. It would also make sense that this guilty secret would be the key to DD's behavior in the Cave.

But... wha? Why? Sherlock Holmes said (and it's a paraphrase) that when you eliminate the impossible, what is left, however improbable, must be the truth. So it seems to me that the truth must be is that someone who was not a true DE sent Bella chasing after the Longbottoms to find out the truth behind Voldemort's disappearence. And the most likely candidate is Dumbledore or someone DD or Snape revealed the truth of the prophecy to. Which is why I thought of Peter, as he's weasel and has a foot in both camps.

Which begs the side question - WHO is the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2006 :  01:56:06  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
JKR has said that there are not going to be any new characters in book 7, so it has to be someone we already know about. I like the Dumblesore theory if only because it creates a great plot twist. :)
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2006 :  10:09:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, let's say we accept "Dumbledore feels/is responsible for the Lestrange's torture of the Longbottoms" as a theory. And that he experiences a vision of this torture in The Cave, hence his wierdly guilty behavior.

But... Why? What posssible reason could there be for him to have revealed the contents of the Prophecy to anyone, least of all the Lestranges? Was it inadvertant? Did he go temporarily insane with grief? Did he make a trade of information with the dark side and later regret it? What possible explanation can there be?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2006 :  17:41:21  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Maybe he gave them up to save the Potters. Doesn't sound right though.
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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2006 :  18:09:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Potters were already dead by then though...

Order of the Bookmark
Purveyor of Fine Peebles
Haggy is (probably not) Cactus!
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2006 :  18:25:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, for some time. And Dumbledore actually told Harry (GoF) he didn't know who exactly had attacked the Longbottoms.

But JKR said they were sent. Damn. Nothing makes any sense.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  20:32:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You're right, AMC. Bella said Snape didn't try to help find the Dark Lord. But I'm certain there are greasy fingerprints somewhere on the attack on the Longbottoms. If Snape didn't do the sending himself, it was certainly his information that led to them being sent.

What first made me suspect pre-HBP that Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy was the hideous way Snape treats both Harry and Neville. Harry and Neville have three unique things in common:

1) They are the only two boys to whom the prophecy could have applied
2) They both lost their parents as a result of Voldemort knowing about the prophecy, and
3) Snape reserves his worst, most vindictive behavior for the two of them.

I felt that Snape treated Harry and Neville so badly because they reminded him most of the terrible consequences of his own actions. By belittling them and bullying them into submission, he is attempting to belittle and control his own feelings of guilt and failure. Whether or not Snape sent the Lestranges after Frank and Alice, the information he supplied sealed their fate, and he knows it. A more compassionate, less selfish individual would try to assuage their guilt by being kind and helpful to the boys, but Snape is neither compassionate or kind ... anything that reminds him of his own shortcomings must be brutally supressed.

I keep going back the what JKR said about the Lestranges being sent. Her response was awfully cagey.

"...they were very definitely sent after Nevilleís parents. I canít say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret."

What more was there to say if the attack on Neville's parents was merely coincidence? If it was, she could have said that it had nothing to do with the prophecy and left it at that. However, she specifically related the event closely to the prophecy and who knew about it. So I suppose that either Snape or Voldemort could have told someone else, and that was the person who sent Bella and co. after Frank and Alice.

But who else might have known about the prophecy on the OotP side? Do you think Dumbledore told the Potters? They seemed to know that Harry was the target ... surely Dumbledore told them why (not the entire prophecy verbatim, he's too secretive for that, but mainly that it existed and Harry was threatened because of it). In return, the Potters might have told the person they trusted enough to be their secret-keeper: Peter Pettigrew. Now, I can believe that Peter knew there was a prophecy, but I have a hard time thinking that he had the guts to send someone after the Longbottoms because of it. After all, he was only around for one day after the Potters were killed, and he was busy hiding Voldemort's things and planning his own disappearance. The coward was probably staying as far from Death Eaters as possible. *sigh*

I still think that Snape might have suggested Neville's parents as good targets, but Bella doesn't give him credit because he never actually helped carry out the dirty deed. You know that she is quick to exaggerate her own contributions compared to those of others. Plus, she has no subtlety. If something isn't done with knock-you-over-the-head bravado, she doesn't recognize it. I doubt she ever appreciated Snape's type of work.

I keep coming back to Snape ... It was Snape what did it ... *evil cackle*

Edited by - n/a on 09/06/2006 20:38:12
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2006 :  01:40:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like your thinking, Pixie - even if I don't quite see it. I can totally see Snape suggesting to another DE out of sheer and idle malice that the Longbottoms might have some information on Voldemort's whereabouts. But I also think DD has some responsiblity for the event, as it explains (when nothing else does) what on earth he feels so guilty about in The Cave.

I wonder perhaps if DD doesn't blame himself for not stopping Snape, not trying to interfere, when he snuck off to his master with the half-heard prophecy. DD does tend to hang back and not interfere and I guess he could blame himself for the Potters' death and the Longbottoms' torture even if he was not, in fact, directly to blame - sins of omission being less grieveous than those of commission, you know. But then we get back to the whole "DD's boggart is a secret" thing... and what's so secret about having an overactive conscience?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 09/08/2006 01:41:49
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2006 :  01:50:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know Pixie, I hadn't really thought of the similarities between Harry and Neville's roles and how Snape treats them. You're absolutely right - they are both boys who were essentially orphaned as todders - and Snape's spying was at least partially to blame for their respective parents' fates. So Snape is guilty of helping to creating these boys' hardships and yet he treats them both with complete derision and does his best to undermine their Hogwarts careers.

Huh. He sure is a nasty piece of work.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2006 :  22:04:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*pops in, flops into cushy armchair by the fire*

Well, it seems to be that time of year when my life always becomes extremely busy and complicated. Too many projects and too little time. I've been trying to keep up with HPG, or should I say St. Mungo's now , but lately I can barely even manage that without being constantly interrupted and pulled away. So I'll probably be going on a posting hiatus for a while ... at least until January when the holiday hubbub starts to die down and I have time to think properly again.

I know you all will keep the faith and not be bowled over by all the icky Snape-lurve out there ... with our fearless leader AMC, how could that happen? Just please have a firewhiskey and throw a dart for me once in a while.

to everybody (except Snape)! Boy will I miss you all. And these chairs ... the best ever. Bye for now!

*pops out*

Edited by - n/a on 09/08/2006 22:05:09
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2006 :  23:17:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sigh. It's going to be lonely here without you around, Pixie. But on the bright side, by the time you come back we might have a Book 7 publishing date! *Is excited* And there's always the firewhiskey. Check back in if your projects have some down-time.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2006 :  13:12:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*saves Pesky a seat* Can't guarantee I'll save you any firewhiskey though, so hurry back!

Order of the Bookmark
Purveyor of Fine Peebles
Haggy is (probably not) Cactus!
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2006 :  20:44:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*occupies seat*

Yeah, this staying away thing is really working. Not. The call of the firewhiskey is too strong. That, and the giddiness induced by JKR updating her website. Well, I am trying and if I do disappear for a while (which will probably happen soon enough), don't worry, it's for good reason.

AMC, I really do hope we find out about Dumbledore's guilty secret. I'm very much at a loss to imagine what it is. He is a fascinating man, and I want to understand more about what makes him tick ... not only about his strengths, but about his weaknesses as well. Now that he's passed, perhaps some of these details will come to light.

I'm still finishing up Order of the Phoenix (for the fourth time), and in hindsight, I can hardly believe how the whole Legilimency/Occlumency/Mental Link issue was so dominant in OotP, yet was dropped so completely OotP. The treatment of it lacks closure and is very unsatisfying. If it doesn't resurface somehow, it will seem like so much wasted time and space.

Anyway ... I have an idea how to get some satisfaction.

*accio pirate*



Yo ho, Yo ho ... and you know the rest.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  03:38:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Pixie! Glad you're still around - the place isn't the same without you - but if you disappear from sight we'll try not to worry. I was in New York City this last week so I've been a little incommunicado myself. Had a lovely time - that's a city that knows it's firewhiskey, although there's an unaccountable rash of mixed drinks with repectable enough titles (like "martini" and "mojito") that seem to consist entirely of sugary bases and fruity flavors. I don't understand the point.

I had a thought - maybe not an original one, but a thought nonetheless. Dumbledore's greatest weaknesses/faults have been protrayed as 1. his reluctance to interfere in potentially dangerous situations until it's too late and 2. his lack of confidence in other people's intuitions/warnings (like, Harry's about Draco).

What if DD had been warned about the attack on the Longbottoms and had not heeded the warnings? Wouldn't that make him feel culpable for their torture? What if the person doing the warning was... Snape? Wouldn't that confirm DD's faith in his having changed sides and wouldn't the burden of DD's guilt make him incapable of ever suspecting Snape of mischief ever again?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  16:47:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like straight up firewhisky too. Mojitos remind me too much of kamikazes.

kamikazes=puking

I'll take my drinks neat.

I've been drinking quite a bit of pumpkin ale the past week or so. *remembers to drop some by here* Some brews are better then others. But..the bottles are sure nifty none the less. I've got a nice collection going. I also drank a ginger beer with an owl on the label. I should line up my empties and take a picture
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2006 :  01:42:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes! Yes! Kamikazes = Puking! It's one of the basic truths of life and I'd forgotten. No wonder I don't like those sweet things.

So no one wants to comment on DD's guilty conscience? I'm thinking it's more likely than actual guilt.

*Stretches out* I need a nap.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2006 :  01:07:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sigh. I'm sad. And the teashop's full of crazy Pirates so I'm going to drink here instead. Slushy, got anything special for a pick-me-up? It's been a rough day.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2006 :  11:02:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*totters in*

*deposits large tray of warm frosted cinnamon buns on table beside AMC*

*produces steaming teapot*

*pours tea, stirs in honey and lemon*

*measures out whiskey chaser*

*curtsies deeply*

*blows raspberry at Snape dartboard*

*totters out*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2006 :  18:37:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow. Sometimes I wonder what this club ever did to deserve such a really great house elf.

Anyone else for some tea and cinnamon buns?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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