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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  00:07:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pixie, I have to tell you that my aging eyes play tricks on me sometimes and the combination they make of the first two jobs you listed in your last post.. let's just say it's definitely not family friendly!

I had a fascinating thought the other day.. now what was it... about Dumbledore using trust and kindness the way Voldemort used suspicion and terror. Both of them had their successes - wizards who were brought to their sides by these tools and stayed with them. And that both of them had their failures - Voldemort's most obvious failure being R.A.B., the DE who turned against him. But Dumbledore's failures are less certain - does Peter count as a failure on DD's part or a success on Voldemort's? Snape, of course, is likely a failure of DD's but (from canon) we can't be sure. I was looking for parallels between the groups, which may be ultimately fruitless... but is at least more fun than counting sheep.

Gad what a day! Slushy, how are you at making Mai Tais?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  09:03:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*zooms in*

*busies self at bar*

*fill large glass with ice cubes*

*grabs rum bottle, twirls it in the air, tosses it up, spinss around, and catches it behind back*

*adds various yummy liquors and juices to cocktail shaker*

*shakes shaker left and right, tosses from hand to hand*

*pours with flourish into ice-filled glass*

*garnishes with pineapple, cherry and lime*

*presents to AMC*

*bows low*

*zooms out*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2006 :  00:41:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, what a pro! Now that we have a bartender, anyone want to join me? It's been a long, hot day and the tropical drinks here are the best.

So... to continue with my unprovable theories:

I was thinking about Sirius as the anti-Snape. Snape, a DE, sat out Voldemort's hiatus from power in a cushy job at Hogwarts. Sirius, a loyal member of the Order, was sent to Azkaban for the same time period for a set of murders he did not commit.

BOTH Sirius and Snape were given a second chance by Dumbledore - DD believed in Sirius enough to send H&H back in time to rescue him in spite of Snape's attempts to dissuade him from even listening to their story. Dumbledore believed in Snape enough to defend him in front of the Wizengamot. Sirius certainly repaid that trust with loyalty - Snape, we think not.

Sirius is all risk, all emotion. He loves, he hates, he acts. He insults Harry when Harry doesn't want to take a foolish risk for the fun of it. He loved his friends deeply and suffered from the guilt of feeling he had betrayed them. He loves Harry and he had loved James.

Snape is all about security. In the middle of a very uncertain time, he has an "in" with the most powerful wizards on both sides of the fight. He disdains emotions, especially those powerful enough to overcome a wizard's control. The only emotion he lets show are the hatred and resentment aimed at Harry and/or his father James.

There are also similarities: A teenaged Sirius tried to kill Snape as part of a joke, the adult Snape tried to kill Sirius in dead earnest. Both of them were trusted by Albus Dumbledore, Snape rather more so than Sirius. Both of them deeply despise Peter Pettigrew. Sirius, because he knows Peter was the traitor that caused their friends' death, Snape because... why? Snape despises weakness and Peter is certainly weak enough to depise. I wonder a little if the association between Snape and Peter isn't stronger than we know.

Aside: It's funny, in the books Snape is completely unattractive and Sirius was a sexy dude ravaged by time - in the movies it's the opposite (I am apparently blind to Gary Oldman's charms). I kind of wonder how many fewer Snape fans there would be if the casting had been reversed.

I love Sirius. I really admire his spirit and willingness to risk his life for Harry, even after all he already suffered. He could have retired to a tropical island and lived his life happily, instead he spent a year living on rats in a cave and another trapped in a house he hated because he wanted to do his bit for Harry and the Order. For a fun-loving, adventurous soul to do that says a great deal about his character. I know we always see Sirius as immature and in some ways he was - but he was deeply caring and self-sacrificing, those aren't childish traits.

I hate Snape. This comes very naturally to me, which is why I'm in S.I.N.U.S. in the first place! He has feathered his nest nicely and sacrificed nothing - even when Bella laughs about his great sacrifice being not teaching his favorite subject he has no reply but to say that the Dark Lord was happy he did so. Of all the characters we meet, he seems the least likely to give up something he really wanted for a "cause" of any kind and he doesn't seem to give a hoot for anyone else at all.

I'm not sure if JKR gave us Sirius specifically as a contrast to Snape but they certainly do contrast. Sirius was an admirable, if flawed, character and Snape.. well, see the title. What do you think - deliberate paralleling of the characters or coincidence?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2006 :  04:06:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll join you with a glass of wine. It's just too hot for anything too sweet.

quote:
Aside: It's funny, in the books Snape is completely unattractive and Sirius was a sexy dude ravaged by time - in the movies it's the opposite (I am apparently blind to Gary Oldman's charms). I kind of wonder how many fewer Snape fans there would be if the casting had been reversed.


You are not the only one. I find Alan WAY better looking than Gary. I was really disappointed that they couldn't find someone better looking for Sirius.

I've never really thought of Sirius as immature....more like his emotional growth was stunted. Let's face it, he was very young when he went to Azkaban. He was stuck in hell during the time when most people find out who they really are. I think that Sirius and Snape are/were boys stuck in men's bodies. Sirius, I believe was a little above Snape in the emotional development department, but not by much. Neither could let go of their school age rivalry.

Knowing JKR, I don't think that it was a complete coincidence that Sirius and Snape ended up being opposites. Unless there's something in their backgrounds that weren't not privy to that blows this right out of the water.

Proud member of SINUS

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2006 :  18:48:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
AMC, thank you for standing up for Sirius! *applauds*

<rant>

It seems that everywhere you look these days, there is Marauder-bashing going on. How can readers have lost sight of the fact that these are the good guys??? Sirius and James stood for the White Hat from day one ... unequivocally. They were universally well-liked by their teachers and comrades, and seemed to only have problems with dark slimy types.

Yet, one peep inside Snape's pensieve, and they're condemned for life. This has bothered me for some time. Poor Snapey can be readily forgiven for all manner of atrocities extending all through his adult life, but James and Sirius, noooooo ... they were the evil bullies who drove him to it. Despite all their brave and honorable actions before and after Snape's memory, what some readers cling to most about James and Sirius is something stupid they did when they were fifteen and blowing off steam after the most difficult exams in their lives.

This lack of parallel sympathy in fandom stymies me. Why are people so eager to condemn the Marauders? JKR has defined them as the good guys. Not the perfect guys, to be sure, but essentially good guys to the core. I love that she made them flawed, because that makes their characters realistic. And they both ended up paying dearly ... with their lives. They're both dead in the service of good. Where's the sympathy for that?

Sure, Sirius was emotionally stunted, but he had an excellent excuse ... a dozen years in Azkaban being tortured by dementors. It's a tribute to his character that he didn't go completely insane. Snape, on the other hand, had every opportunity to grow up and get over his grudge. He was comfortably teaching at Hogwarts, had achieved an enviable position as Head of House, and was trusted by the greatest wizard of the age. All this while his old adversaries were either dead, impoverished, or imprisoned in hell. It's a condemnation of Snape's character that he remained so filled with hate and vengeance toward them, even after he had achieved success and they all had suffered so greatly.

</rant>

Really, if you look at all the characters who are important to Harry in the series, each one possesses a different character trait that will be essential to Harry's success:

Sirius: Raw Emotion, Loyalty
James: Honor, Courage
Lily: Love
Remus: Patience, Thoughtfulness
Dumbledore: Forgiveness, Second Chances

I think all these characters are different so that each of them can teach Harry a different, important life lesson. Harry has to adopt a little each of their strengths to succeed in his mission, and to live a happy life.

What I can't quite figure out is how Snape, another very different character, figures into this equation. As horrid as he is, you can't deny that Snape is very important to Harry. But I can't imagine Harry becoming stonger by adopting any of Snape's character traits. Is Snape there to serve as a cautionary tale about the dangers of anger and hatred? Why is he so awful? (Other than for our entertainment )

I keep coming back to Snape being a sort of stumbling block for our hero -- a character that brings out the worst in him. Unlike Sirius, who is important to Harry for his strengths despite his flaws, Snape is important precisely because of his flaws. If Harry can conquer his feelings about Snape, he can conquer anything. This is a necessary trial he will have to face on his way to Voldemort.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2006 :  00:44:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Pixie - it's the problem I always have with the Snape-apologists - don't they think about his victims? Don't they care about anyone else? In their rush to forgive and forget where Snape is concerned they seem to have inadvertantly developed amnesia around the suffering of some very innocent and admirable characters - Neville, Hermione and Lupin spring to mind, as well as Sirius, Harry and James/Lily.

I do think Snape serves an important role - he's the snake in the grass. All heros need to be tempted because you can't be a hero unless you can resist temptation - just being good is too easy, it has to be a struggle. Snape is the one person that calls Harry to the dark side of his character - not by attraction but by being his repellent self. Snape is the one person who Harry truly hates - Snape almost nutures that hatred - and Harry must learn to resist hatred. Snape makes Harry doubt his hero-dad, feeds Harry an ongoing line about Harry being arrogant and fame-loving, tells him that his emotions are a weakness, opens his mind to the allure of Voldemort. Snape practically cultivates Harry's weaknesses - self-doubt, isolationism, hatred. Snape is a Snake. In some ways, if I were a Snape-fan I would say the strongest defence one could give him is proposing the theory that Dumbledore had asked Snape to behave as awfully as possible to give Harry a chance to strengthen his resolve and fortify his heart against contamination by evil. But I don't think DD would do that, any more than he would ask the Dursleys to be crass and unkind or ask Umbridge to be evil-minded. We all find our stumbling blocks in this world, no one has to invent them for us.

I think it's not a coincidence that Harry "lost" Snape and Dumbledore in one fell swoop. Dumbledore encouraged Harry's best qualities - Snape tried to raise up the weeds. Now in book 7, it's just Harry - no mentor, no tormentor. It's all about Harry and who he has become.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2006 :  00:59:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just thought of something very, very odd.

According to Dumbledore Snape is a DE spy for the Order.
Also according to Dumbledore, he asked Snape to teach Harry Occlumency rather than teaching him himself so Voldemort wouldn't glimpse how much DD cared for Harry and how much closer their relationship was than that of teacher and pupil
...
If DD was that concerned about Voldemort "reading" Harry's mind, how could he risk having his spy Snape teaching a skill specifically intended to close Harry's mind against Voldemort?

Putting aside whether Snape actually taught Harry anything - what was Dumbledore thinking???



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2006 :  22:26:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*cleans out liquor cabinet*

*leaps across the vail*
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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  04:58:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tsuki?

Hon, you all right?

Newguise xxx
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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  07:59:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hehe...yes...Just went over for a wild all night party. And in my party hearty state I apparently spelled veil wrong : P

Once the party was over I leaped back through unscathed. Now I need to sleep away the better part of my Saturday to recover however ^_^
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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  08:47:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A long nap for you and a traditional Full English fried breakfast for you when you wake I think. I'm sure Slushy will rise to the occasion.

I really like the Sirius-Snape thoughts. It is a shame we didn't see a bit more of Sirius really. He is a huge presence in the books for lots of reasons but gets very little page time. Harry could probably count the number of times he met him (summer at Grimmauld Place counts as one) on his fingers. You could argue that we see less of Snape than perhaps some would imagine, but he is always present in weekly classes and the corridors of Hogwarts and at mealtimes, so he occupies a larger physical space in Harry's life.

Sirius' emotional contribution to Harry has been enormous. Harry loved him like a parent and felt the real loss of a parent he'd known, a love so powerful it was beyond Voldemort. There is no question that knowing Sirius has given Harry far more punch in his armoury. The question is, what has Snape done?

There are some who say Harry is stronger for knowing Snape because having experienced the discrimination and had to deal with it has been an education in itself. There are others who think that Harry's emotional loss of control and failure to think when confronted with Snape is a real weakness. I am not sure where I stand on this one. If knowing Sirius has taught him love, and knowing Snape has taught him hate, then there is a much less of a case for Snape's influence being of any use to him. Is Snape there purely to hinder Harry?

Newguise xxx
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  12:23:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nuggy, let me philosophize. As a teen, I picked up a concept from reading William Blake and I've found it quite universal in application. Using Blake's terms (but my interpretation, because the poor guy's dead and can't speak for himself) there are two states of being: "Innocence" and "Experience". In essence, Innocence represents those things we think of as pure and good, Experience the opposite. We are born Innocent, but it is a fragile state, as one serious brush with the nasty old real world will strip us of it. The challenge for the entire human race is to find a stable "good" state - a new innocence. But that can only be achieved by going through the state of experience, not avoiding it. You can't hide from the darker side of life, you can't refuse to experience it or you will never progress beyond the first naive, instable and blind form of Innocence. To achieve the state of true goodness - Grace, Nirvana, whatever you want to call it - you need to have immersed yourself in the world of Experience and found a way to rise above its sordidness to a new state - Enlightenment, one might say.

In Harry's case, he was a raw innocent when he started Hogwarts - a blank slate. Good material, definitely, but untrained. If he had been surrounded by nothing but love and joy, he'd have ended up like James - a good hearted, talented boy but spoiled. He needs to be stronger than that, better than that, to fight Voldemort.

Experiencing hatred, true hatred, and learning to move beyond it shows real maturity: Harry has experienced the dark side of life and he is learning to choose NOT to live there. That is a much stronger, much more stable form of goodness than that of an innocent boy who had never hated anyone.

So I don't think of Snape as hindering Harry by teaching him to hate - I think he serves a purpose in the book of giving Harry material for personal, emotional and spiritual growth. I know it's not the way we commonly think of things but the Buddists say the people who irritate us most are our greatest teachers and we should be grateful to them - for they show us where we most need work.

Whew! Where's that breakfast - ummm! Can I have your fried bread if you're not eating it?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  12:39:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*heaping plates of English fried breakfast materialize on the tea-tables in front of Tsuki, Newguise, and AMC*

*aside each plate is a smaller plate of marzipan Snape-heads along with a small hammer*

*coffe and tea brew merrily on the side table*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  14:00:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went to the local greasy spoon (fried breakkie cafe) for RL today, so everyone feel free to help themselves to some of mine. Two in one day is just obscene!

Nuggy xxx
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  15:48:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't had a fried breakfast for.. years..., so I'll happily take some of your greasy stuff, Nuggy. Yummm. Slushy, you spoil us.

*Smacks away at the marzipan Snape* Gosh, this feels great!



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  14:57:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

If DD was that concerned about Voldemort "reading" Harry's mind, how could he risk having his spy Snape teaching a skill specifically intended to close Harry's mind against Voldemort?

This is one issue from Book 5 that's never been satisfactorily resolved. Not just why Dumbledore chose to have Snape teach Harry occlumency, but why Harry's mind was always so open to Voldemort's incursions after the lessons. The effect was exactly the opposite of what Dumbledore intended.

Granted, Harry didn't try very hard to learn Occlumency. But he was understandably suspicious of the lessons after he started having more visions afterward. Unfortunately, Dumbledore wasn't aware of any of this ... he wasn't talking to Harry, and he was only getting one side of the story from Snape.

Keep in mind, too, that Snape's stand with Voldemort was rising very rapidly during this time. Over the course of only one year, Snape went from being targeted for death to being called the Dark Lord's favorite. This could not have happened without some pretty powerful persuasive action from Snape. Turning over Emmeline Vance was something, but it can hardly account for the powerful position Snape enjoys as early as Spinner's End.

So, what else to you think Snape might have done to rise so quickly through the ranks of the Death Eaters? How did he prove himself to Voldemort?
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  23:01:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good question Pixie, it ties in with something that struck me as odd in the Lightening Struck Tower chapter when the other DEs (including Greyback) deferred to Snape or at least treated him with serious respect. It is possible that Snape was Voldemort's favorite before his fall and Snape was able to regain that position when he rejoined the DEs but... respect is another thing. Voldemort is feared by his followers and I got the distinct impression that Snape is slightly feared by the DEs. Not by Bella, apparently, or Narcissa, but by the "lesser" DEs.

So Severus Snape sits out 10 years of Voldermort's hiatus from power in a cushy job at Hogwarts. He gives the Dark Lord no assistance in returning and is, in fact, late in returning to Voldemort's side when he calls the DEs to witness his revival.

Snape spends a year (OotP) and a summer as a single/double/triple spy. At the end of this time he is acknowledged as the Dark Lord's favorite. Now it could just be that all the DL's other favorites have screwed up... and Snape hasn't. But that wouldn't explain the respect shown to him by Greyback and the other DEs.

I'd say either
  • Snape had something "saved up" to offer Voldemort when he first arrived - something that saved him from instant death and something Voldemort found very useful.
  • The spying he was able to do for the DEs was invaluable to their plans.
  • Snape has been far more evil recently than even we know and the DEs know what he has done.
  • There's something about the relationship between Snape and Voldemort that we don't know anything about and I wonder if it has anything to do with the concept of his being the Half-Blood Prince.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  23:59:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Incidentally, Pixie - I understood your inference that perhaps the Occlumency lessons were a big boon to Voldemort and I agree it's possible but since the end result of the lessons was not what Voldemort wanted (obtaining the prophecy) I think LV would forget that service as promptly as he'd forget Bella's hard work and sacrifices. He doesn't strike me as a very grateful master...

I'm kind of leaning towards there being some connection between Snape and Voldemort that we do not yet understand.

BTW, I love your avatar - I sat and watched in wonder.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  10:10:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Teehee ... that avatar cracks me up. My daughter dug it up for me somewhere on Xanga. Teenagers can be useful!

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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2006 :  13:44:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Same here regarding the avatar - that's brilliant, I loved it! (The apostrophe is wrong in "Yule Ball's Suck" but you can't have everything.) (Damn, why am I so anal about these things?)

I seem to have managed not to post a post I wrote about AMC and Blake (both of whom with which I agree). I was just trying to extend the opposites discussion which was silly, because AMC's explanation is clearly the right one.


However, on to the present discussion - I am really interested in just how Snape has managed to increase his standing in Voldemort's circle too. By the end of HBP, a lot of the senior D.E.s have been in Azkaban for a year, and I think that that was a big factor. No Lucius Malfoy, no Lestranges and Co, I think that without them Snape automatically would have become more important.

Snape might not have had to do anything really concrete except emphasise to everyone just how completely the Dark Lord trusts him, and imply that he is doing all sorts of things for him that he can't possibly divulge. Snape is spying on Dumbledore (their view...) and for him not have been found out and to be duping Dumbledore must have some impact with the D.E.s. Voldemort has shown himself to be wary of DD - he has never really engaged with him, and I presume this is the case for the D.E.s too.

That might work for the D.E.s (with the exception of the jealous Bella) but that wouldn't work with Voldemort. He either puts great trust in Snape and is pleased with the service he receives, or he is playing double bluff and is using Snape in some plan of his own. I think that would be more likely than Dumbledore having a Grand Plan to be honest.

Voldemort is arrogant and his legilimancy is so good - we have seen him use it almost every time we see him, that I don't believe he realises Snape can block him. He doesn't think that anyone has the capacity to lie to him, and I think this is why he trusts Snape. I agree though that Snape still must pass him information. I wnder if Dumbledore would sanction things for Snape to pass to Voldemort, or even vice-versa, in a misinformation game between the two sides.

Newguise xxx



Voldemort managed to lure Harry to the ministry and I imagine it was Snape's information that Harry was so attached to Sirius.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2006 :  12:57:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Voldemort managed to lure Harry to the ministry and I imagine it was Snape's information that Harry was so attached to Sirius.

It could have been, but Dumbledore gave Kreacher credit for that information.

quote:
[Voldemort] either puts great trust in Snape and is pleased with the service he receives, or he is playing double bluff and is using Snape in some plan of his own. I think that would be more likely than Dumbledore having a Grand Plan to be honest.

Me too. But time will tell.
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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2006 :  16:20:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I might have to start a Voldemort's Grand Plan thread to speculate....

Newguise xxx

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2006 :  16:37:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Too true! But really, Voldemort is a user, a psychopath, someone who appeals to his followers' basest sides. He hasn't been very subtle in his march towards world dominance, it's all Fear/Intimidatation/Death and Glory. Even his scheme to get the prophecy was short-sighted. He'd make a clumsy conspirator, I think - it would be hard to see him putting together a truly complex plan.

Now him using Snape as a tool - that I can see. But I think there's a connection between them that we don't know about - possibly of the Half-Blood variety. I think Voldemort has promised Snape a role as his right-hand person - his Prince, as it were - because they share the background of being Half-Bloods. I know everyone thinks Voldemort is a pure-blood fanatic, but how can this be true? He himself is not a pure blood! Given his egocentric outlook I'd think he would automatically assume that whatever he was, it was "The Best". And that is a Half-Blood. He has pure-blood followers but they don't know who or what he really is! Whether the society of Half-Bloods are elevated in Voldy's mind to the cream of the Wizarding world or whether they band together to destroy the "dirty" half of their bloodlines, I don't know. But it's simply too convenient that both of them are poweful dark wizards with one Muggle parent. There's something there.

Now that's pure speculation on my part, to be sure. But if we can't speculate here, where can we?




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2006 :  02:59:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I have to say.. just between us SINUS members that the the Q&A from JKR's most recent event has distressed me a little.

Dumbledore is dead, we knew that.
But why should we not move into the second stage of grief, i.e. Anger?

The Stages as commonly defined are:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Apparently, JKR wants us to admit that DD is dead but not get upset about it. Personally, I'm at stage 5 already but I had to go through a lot of anger before I could get there. If she really doesn't want people to get angry about DD's death, it kind of supports a Grand Plan of some sort - that DD's death had some purpose.

You know, I really don't care much if Snape is Good or Bad but I think the Grand Plan concept is just awful. I'll be SO disappointed if DD got himself killed as some kind of cover-enhancer for Snape. I just hate the idea.

So really - anyone have any better ideas? If, in fact, DD's death is not completely senseless and worthy of our anger.. and the Snape/GP approach is the nonsense I hope it is.. what possible purpose could DD's death have served? Why shouldn't we be angry?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2006 :  03:18:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Because anger doesn't serve any real purpose. And in fact it can be a hindrance. She was possibly just being that straight forward. There's too much that needs to be done for overly emotional feelings to take hold of people. Even if they have a rational and valid place they're coming from. But I don't think it was necessarily a big hint or anything.
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2006 :  05:34:38  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Tsuki Keta: Because anger doesn't serve any real purpose.
That's kinda silly. When you get down to it, nothing serves any purpose. As qouth The Narrator, "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Why not cut out bargaining, depression or acceptance as they're all equally arbitrary?

No, anger is important, and AMC and I are speaking the same language once again. If it's all a ruse for Spane (In my mind I associate Spane with an old, heavy metal tool for tightening bolts) then I don't think I'll be reaching acceptance. The steps have to be taken, and if any of them are passed by then the resolution does not feel complete.

Edited by - MrBen on 08/06/2006 05:35:07
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2006 :  09:08:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
You know, I really don't care much if Snape is Good or Bad but I think the Grand Plan concept is just awful. I'll be SO disappointed if DD got himself killed as some kind of cover-enhancer for Snape. I just hate the idea.

Amen, Sister! That's exactly how I feel, too. I've always been open to the idea that Snape can do something good and useful, but I refuse to believe that his action of killing Dumbledore is either of those, especially not the idea of killing him as a part of Dumbledore's plan. Not considering everything that's been written in the books and said by JKR so far about the Avada Kedavara and the taking of human life. I don't want to hear "Surprise, the AK is really all right if a good wizard is using it for a good purpose! It's OK to kill helpless old men under certain circumstances. After all, winning is everything and the end justifies the means!" That would be so out of line with every single thing we know so far. If Jo presents us with such a major turnaround I will feel duped and disappointed. Plot twists are one thing, but that would represent an all-out change in philosophy.

I think we all would love to outwit Jo and guess what she has planned for the next book. The Grand Plan idea is very clever, and I think a lot of people latch on to it because it makes them feel as if they've got her figured out. Plus, It bargains out the dilemma of "How can Dumbledore be dead and Snape still be good?" According to AMC's list, they're in the third stage of grief.

But I think the Grand Plan solves everything far too easily. And I don't like the easy answer if it requires the kind of philosophy change I talked about above. Part of Snape has to be bad, really bad, so he can be a proper bete noir for Harry. If he was really good all along, where is the challenge? Harry wouldn't have to learn to overcome his hatred and anger, he'd just have to be able to say "Whoops, I guess I was wrong again," and he's done that plenty of times before. It takes all the challenge out of it.

quote:
Apparently, JKR wants us to admit that DD is dead but not get upset about it.

I took that to mean she doesn't want us to be angry at her. Weren't her words something like, "but don't go there right now." (meaning, "Don't attack me here in the hall" ... humorously). Perhaps I look too hard to see the levity in things people say.

Edited by - n/a on 08/06/2006 09:23:02
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2006 :  12:58:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh yeah - I like that Pixie! I'll accept levity as a good explanation under most circumstances and that "take" on JKR's comments sure makes me feel happier!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2006 :  14:16:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

quote:
Tsuki Keta: Because anger doesn't serve any real purpose.
That's kinda silly. When you get down to it, nothing serves any purpose. As qouth The Narrator, "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Why not cut out bargaining, depression or acceptance as they're all equally arbitrary?

No, anger is important, and AMC and I are speaking the same language once again. If it's all a ruse for Spane (In my mind I associate Spane with an old, heavy metal tool for tightening bolts) then I don't think I'll be reaching acceptance. The steps have to be taken, and if any of them are passed by then the resolution does not feel complete.




What I meant was concerning JK's quote. I think she just means we all need to move on. In our case as readers she doesn't want us sitting around making up theories about how DD is going to jump out of the shadows and save the day, She means we need to get past his death.

As far as Harry and the others are concerned. The clock is ticking. Every day they wiat and spin they lose valuable time. And if Harry was just to spend time ranting or moping about DD's death 'right at this moment'...he'd be wasting valuable time. Just like he also doesn't have time to waste on his feelings for Ginny. I specifically said all those feeling were coming from a valid and rational place. They just can't slow him down at the moment. He can be angry after the wizarding world is saved. It sucks..but that's how life works sometimes.

And I'm not even sure DD dying served some sort of purpose...like...he transferred protective power to Harry or anything. The reason I like JK is she's just sort of blunt and straight forward about life at itmes. And she's treated death well in her books. Sometimes people just die. It sucks. It lacks meaning. It's tragic. But that's life.

Or, DD's death might have served a lot of purposes. Or a single purpose. For one thing it might have been 'the' thing that unified certain groups of people, and creatures for that matter (ie the merpeople and the centaurs) to stop hiding from the truth and take a stand against Voldemort. 'Remember Cedric' might not have been a been a powerful battle cry. It might have take DD dying to shock everyone.

As far a plot concerned 'purpose' we just have to wait and see.

My main point though is I don't think she was coding out secret cryptic messages meant for astute readers in the most recent interview.

Edited by - Tsuki Keta on 08/06/2006 14:19:28
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2006 :  19:58:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, Tsuki I think maybe the issue is getting clouded over what "purpose" I was looking for.

Without question DD's death served a purpose from the perspective of the overall plot - among other things, it's impossible for our HERO Harry to go it alone while Dumbledore was there, helping him along and telling him what to do, think, feel and act. And he did - Dumbledore felt paternally towards Harry and it showed. Book 7 needs to be Harry's big fight and it has to be his virtues and his strengths that carry the day.

My question really was - was JKR telling us not to be angry over DD's death because the death itself (and HOW he died) was not really senseless. I was reading "don't go to the anger stage right now" as - there is more to his death than you now know and you'll all be reconciled when you find out more later. That bothered me!

I agree that Harry cannot waste his time in anger over DD's death, just as he cannot spend the next year hunting for Snape - he has a job to do and it's going to require him to be 100% present, not moping around or futilely railing against fate.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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