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 Snape is a Nasty, Underhanded Slimeball (SINUS)
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2006 :  13:09:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC:

Dumbledore gave all of these people fresh starts, opportunities to arise from dark pasts, but the important thing is not that they were given the chance but what they made of it. Their choices, not Dumbledore's trust, was what mattered. So I think Dumbledore is wrong in HBP when he says to Draco it was his mercy that mattered - yes mercy is critical. Yes, offering trust and second chances was Dumbledore's finest weapon to help people make good out of bad in their lives. But that trust alone was not a sufficient "good", ultimately it was the subsequent choices these wizards made that mattered.

I agree completely! I was trying to touch on this concept in the "faith" topic, but you say it so much better than I. Thank you! By giving people second second chances, Dumbledore provides the opportunity for them to make the right choices going forward. His trust may increase the chances of that happening, but it is no guarantee.

The theme of choice is even stronger in the books than the themes of faith and love. JKR reminds us of this again and again. Faith and love are important too in that they support making the right choices, and Dumbledore is the champion of this. But in the end it comes down to individual choice.

quote:
AMC:

I think the "mistakes" [Dumbledore] made in trusting certain wizards were deliberate efforts to save their souls when he knew full well they could fall into evil very easily.

Absolutely. He took the risk because the potential reward was so great: saving souls and defeating evil. However, he definitely knew the risks involved. He acknowledged as much when he admitted that his mistakes tended to be proportionally larger. I think that's because he knew he was taking larger risks than others might, because he practiced what he preached about love and trust.
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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2006 :  13:14:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, possibly Dumbledore couldn't see the trees for the wood?

He trusted and gave second chances as a matter of principle. The possibility that people wopuld repay his trust was far more important than the probability that they would or wouldn't do this. In that case I see Harry as someone who has greater difficulty seeing the wood for the trees. He evaluates the trustworthiness of the individual based on his knowledge about that person (which may be incomplete, or incorrect) rather than let them show him that they can be trustworthy when shown trust by another.

Is one of them more right than the other? I can see an argument for both. I also would have thought that just adopting one of these trusting-policies would be insufficient - you'd need a bit of both not to get had. Trust as mant people as you can as much as you can, but be able to spot the really untrustworthy ones to save yourself the inevitable grief. What does anyone else think?

Newguise xxx

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2006 :  13:48:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Newguise:

Trust as mant people as you can as much as you can, but be able to spot the really untrustworthy ones to save yourself the inevitable grief. What does anyone else think?


I would say, trust as many people as much as you can, but be realistic about their limitations in what you ask them to do. For example, Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance to be a good man, and trusted him. Fundamentally right move. However, Dumbledore trusted Snape to teach Harry occlumency, not realizing that it would be nearly impossible for Snape to overcome his adolescent grudge enough to be a decent teacher to Harry. Wrong move. There are plenty of other ways Dumbledore could have shown his faith in Snape without expecting that. In this case, Dumbledore's idealism obscured his judgement a bit. I think he may have placed Snape in some other situations that overtaxed his personal limitations as well. This is probably a direct result of Dumbledore's intellectual and emotional isolation ... he can imagine the way he himself would react to certain situations, but he has a difficult time putting himself in the place of someone with greater challenges and a little less, um, fortitude.

I don't see idealism and isolation being so much of a problem for Harry, though. He's a fairly grounded person who is able to empathise with the challenges of others (like Neville, Luna, and even to some extent Snape). He has a harder time forgiving, though ... and might miss opportunities as a result.

I had a thought the other night about Dumbledore's death ... another reason that it was necceary. The four Hogwarts houses have never really united. Perhaps the death of Dumbledore will be the extreme catalyst that will bring them together. A shared threat and loss, if you will, uniting them against the evil force that took the life of so good and great a man. The loss was not individual, as in the case of a family death; it was a communal experience felt deeply by all. We saw this at Dumbledore's funeral. And with the most subversive elements of Slytherin house removed, unity may at last be possible, in the name of Dumbledore.

I dunno, just a thought.


Edited by - n/a on 07/17/2006 13:50:39
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2006 :  20:34:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree Pixie! They've needed a rallying point all along and now they have one.

Hey! I'm Barmy!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2006 :  14:26:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are all assuming that Hogwarts will definitely be open next year. I can't think it will be shut from the beginning of term. I think that there will be some people who will want to send their kids, although the security issue is a big one. I imagine that the people who do go back will be the ones more likely to believe in a united Hogwarts anyway.

Newguise xxx
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2006 :  15:39:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well they didn't shut Hogwarts down the first time Voldemort was terrorizing everyone, I can't see why they'd shut it now. The Trio say they won't be returning but - there are other kids in the country who need to be educated. How are you going to train future aurors if you shut down the Wizarding schools? I think Hoggywarts will definitely be open - and I think it's definitely at risk for attack from Voldemort. That will bring Harry back there, if nothing else does.

House Unity is a must. I know there are too many possible sub-plots for JKR to tie up in one book but the business of the division between the Hogwarts Houses is a big deal, repeated often and reinforced by the Sorting Hat's songs. It's got to be resolved in Book 7 and I think that will help make Book 7 what it should be: a positive resolution to the series. Harry may or may not be better off at the end (is being dead being better off that living at the Dursleys? Hmm) but the world will be better off if all decent wizards learn to live in harmony (cue sappy music).

Ahh - this place is so enjoyable. Anyone for a pint and a badly played game of darts? I can't ever get one to hit right on the greasy nose but I do love trying.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2006 :  19:54:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can play darts as poorly as the next person, so I'll join you.

I thought it was interesting at the end of HBP that Harry threw Dumbledore's words from CoS back in the face of Rufus Scrimgeour whe he said that Dumbledore would never leave the school whilst those who are loyal to him remain. I can see his name being used as a battlecry in the defence of Hogwarts. I too think that Voldemort will try and occupy it. I wonder if Hogwarts itself will try and repel him.

Nuggy xxx
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2006 :  21:08:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*picks up dart and aims carefully*
*throws erractically*
*deflates Snape punching bag in corner*

Whoops!

Hogwarts can't close! There are too many characters we can only realistically see at Hogwarts ... too many loose ends to tie up. Neville, or course, still has a part to play. And in addition to the house unity issue, think of Dean, Seamus, Luna, Colin and Dennis, Flitwick, Hagrid, and so many others. We need to see them again to have any sense of closure, and I don't see any possible way this can happen without Hogwarts being open.

Slushy, one glass of elf-made vintage port and some stilton, please! Thank You! Ahhhh!

Plus, I want to see the giant squid eat a Death Eater.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  01:49:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oooo! Port and Stilton! Add a few ripe pears and I'm never leaving!

*Throws 3 dart in quick succession, hitting the wall, a window ledge and the very edge of the dartboard* Hey! I'm improving - it must be the port.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  07:51:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*scuttles in*

*produces heaping fruit plate*

*restocks bar, sets kettle for tea, and starts coffee press, so as not to leave anyone out*

*retrieves errant darts from corners*

*beats snape-head ottoman with a club (to remove dust)*

*giggles*

*curtsies*

*scuttles out*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  13:21:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*watches Slushy perform tasks from a large comfy chair*

*is impressed with the ottoman beating*

Slushy, you have quite a swing there...

Nuggy xxx
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  13:35:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Isn't she a treasure?

*beams*

I think we'd all love to see the Giant Squid do more than just rescue first years. And I love the idea of Hogwarts itself repelling the invaders.

Does anyone remember the small flash of something that Harry saw in Dumbledore's memory of Voldemort's job-hunting visit? Do you think it has any significance? I was thinking it was possible that Voldy left some kind of artifact or charm on something in Dumbledore's office but perhaps it was just the DADA-curse?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  14:07:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting question, AMC. I've always wondered how Voldemort went about cursing the DADA job. It's not a tangible thing, and doesn't HP magic need some sort of object to act upon? I wonder if he didn't cast an enchantment on Dumbledore, or perhaps on the office itself, that in turn activated a curse upon anyone to whom Dumbledore gave the DADA position.

Teehee ... if he were hiding something like a horcrux, wouldn't Dumbledore's office be an awfully unsafe place to put it, right under the nose of his nemesis? But Voldemort might just be arrogant enough to try.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  15:45:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, Dumbledore assured Harry that the sword of Gryffindor was not a horcrux... but we all now know that Dumbles was not infallible..

But your point about the curse needing a physical object is good, perhaps it was Dumbledore he cursed, not the job itself. But wouldn't Dumbledore know it, in that case?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  17:54:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
According to Krasner, “Lord Voldemort has to die. And Snape, who is really fighting for good despite all appearances, will likely die. Neville Longbottom is really the chosen one, so I suspect he'll die,” he says.

Oh look! A 'literary expert' doubts our reason to exist.

So sad

Too bad he must never read any of JK's actual statements or he'd have a clue about Neville.

Oh! yeah...and possibly Snape

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/522011/
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  19:25:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't forget, even if Snape is turns out to be fighting on the side good, he will always be a Nasty, Underhanded Slimeball!

Interesting that this guy thinks JKR will be conform to the English boarding school genre, even though she didn't even realize she was writing a boarding school book until after the first one was finished. I so hope she isn't as predictable as he thinks! I don't expect her to be because she's always put her own spin on things. But then I'm not a "British Literary Expert," so what do I know?
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2006 :  19:48:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

Don't forget, even if Snape is turns out to be fighting on the side good, he will always be a Nasty, Underhanded Slimeball!
Yes, that's the nice thing about our club - we're not fixated on only one outcome! We'll be SINUS to the end!

But really - Dumbledore come back as a ghost? Is he crazy? Did he read the first 5 books? If anyone was prepared to move on to the next world, it was Albus Dumbledore.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  08:08:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think he has AMC because Quidditch is NOT the focus of these books. GoF barely had any Quidditch at all and it's become less important with every book.

I LOVE the theory about Voldie cursing DD as opposed to actually cursing the DADA position. That would make so much more sense.

Proud member of SINUS

Order of the Bookmark
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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  13:53:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cursing the DADA position is rather brilliant and too funny. Plus it would answer lots of questions. It would give DD motive for not giving the job to Snape previously. And...it could give a motive for DD to trust Snape. Maybe Snape wanted the job so badly he was willing to do anything for it. Including help defeat Voldemort by working with his old rival's son to lift the curse.

Trelawney got to hang out at the castle even when she wasn't doing her job properly. Maybe Hogwarts job's offer the ultimate job security and pension package. And it was purely that driving Snape
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  16:11:18  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
What was the alternative for Snape if he wasn't working at Hogwarts? He tainted by his association with both sides of the divide.
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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  16:20:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*note to self: Send Snape list of possible alternative job prospects.*
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  17:44:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
off the top of my head:

1) Dressmaker's Dummy
2) Bedpan Scrubber
3) Flobberworm Sorter
4) Hippogriff Herder
5) Antidote Tester
6) Practice Target for Bludgers
7) Manticore Bait

Oooh, I'm sure there are plenty more good ones that are suitable for the Slimey One.
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  17:47:03  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
* muse for dart-board makers
* sewer cleaner (ironic, since he's what caused the mess in the first place)
* lead singer for a goth band
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  21:34:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ooo! That last one is good. But you're forgetting Snape's special skills!

How about:

  • Love Potion Brewer for a Witches Boutique.
  • Life Insurance Salesman, specializing in DE Rider policies.
  • Seminar leader for management: Duplicity in the Workplace - make it work for you.
  • Chief Detention Giver in an S&M Bordello




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 07/20/2006 23:10:21
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  22:08:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*snort*
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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2006 :  23:03:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC
  • Chief Detention Giver in an S&M Bordello
  • [/list]





    drat! I was going to say that

    -book cover model for Snape-centric romance fics

    -door to door doxycide salesman

    -wealthy entrepreneur who patented the sneer
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    AMC
    Mediwizard

    1710 Posts

    Posted - 07/20/2006 :  23:12:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Tsuki Keta

    -book cover model for Snape-centric romance fics


    I really do think Snape could give old Fabio a run for his money, if all those Snape-fans are romance fiction buyers.


    And I love you, I love you, I love you.
    Like never before, like never before.

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    Tsuki Keta
    Addled

    USA
    176 Posts

    Posted - 07/21/2006 :  10:21:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    -worst clown ever
    -hanging out as a gargoyle on a Gloucestershire church
    -beatnik poet
    -playing Scrooge in christmas pagents
    -muse for kabuki mask artisans

    Edited by - Tsuki Keta on 07/21/2006 10:21:53
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    n/a
    deleted

    1483 Posts

    Posted - 07/21/2006 :  11:57:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    - Prison Cook
    - Windsock
    - Underwear Model
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    MrBen
    Barmy

    Australia
    284 Posts

    Posted - 07/21/2006 :  17:57:28  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
    - Scarecrow
    - Lift attendant
    - Cautionary tale

    Edited by - MrBen on 07/21/2006 17:58:31
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