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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2006 :  23:19:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slushy, you're a treasure!

*Help self to cake*

Remind us to give you a raise! (Err.. do we pay Slushy? Maybe we should just give her a better closet.)


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  16:34:58  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Okay, a question to break the back of our theological war: What would it take for us to believe that Snape has the whtie hats' best interests at heart, that he's been justified in all his slimey actions? And what if there was no explanation given?
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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  18:32:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

And what if there was no explanation given?



You mean what if JK left it unresolved in the last book? Like..Snape died and we never knew for sure? er... I was immediately going to say it wouldn't happen. But actualy it would be pretty funny if it did.

And..what would it take to convince me? I guess some sort of definite explanation. For now I still feel he has a motive we don't know or an unknown agenda. It could be he's not on either side and simply out to betray both to benefit himself.

Until then I'm only going on personal instincts. And my instincts are saying not to trust him. And I think it goes beyond me not just not liking him personally. I genuinely feel he's not to be trusted.

So..yeah...I guess for me it would take some big sort of verbal explanation with evidence to back it up. Or an explanatoin from JK herelf after the next book's release.

Is that what you meant Ben?
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  18:53:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmm - that's an excellent question Ben and surprisingly on-topic... are you sure you're feeling okay?

My initial response was to say that there would HAVE to be a Grand Plan type explanation of why Snape killed Dumbledore but then you said if there was no explanation... so I guess you're asking what would it take for him to do in Book 7 to convince me he is on the right side? He would need to try to kill Voldemort. Or provide direct on-purpose assistance in Voldemort's destruction. "Saving Harry" or any other sob-inducing plot twists wouldn't do it for me because there are apparently many layers of wizards owing debts back and forth at this point in time - Peter, who is a slime, owes Harry big time but it doesn't make him a good guy.

Now if you were asking what explanations we would need in order to view Snape from the first 6 books differently - that's a whole 'nother thing!

I kind of agree with Tsuki - it would be pretty funny to have Snape die and the whole good/evil thing be a permanent mystery.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  19:04:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
By the way "justified in all his slimey actions" has got to be made more concrete. Is betraying Lupin's secret one of those actions? Not justified, I don't care what his story is. Is trying to get Sirius killed via the Dementor's Kiss one of those actions? Ditto. Is trying to get Harry expelled one of the actions? Not teaching him Occlumency? Killing Dumbledore? Re-Joining the DE? Betraying Emmeline Vance? Some of his past actions have potential excuses, but some just do not. Hes not a nice person, JKR has told us and shown us again and again - you cannot justify all his actions because some are simply due to an ungoverned temper and a warped personality.

I think answering "what would it take to convince you the Snape is on the side of the Order" is hard enough - add in justification of all of his actions and it becomes impossible.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  19:40:54  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I'm not even sure that having Snape attempt to kill Voldie would show he was on The Order's side. For me, The Order seem more of a convenience for him than an actual team he's playing for. If he did make the attempt I don't see it even being for them.

So I need more... some kinda selfless act (although I don't believe in altruism).
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  20:31:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well you're a tough customer, Ben.. you don't believe in what you're requiring from Snape...!

But it's interesting that would make the difference to you - it wouldn't to me. What would one selfless act do? Rehabilitate his character? It wouldn't undo all the harm he's done. There would have to be clear indications that he at least did not mean to do the damage he did to at least some of the people (E. Vance, Dumbledore, Neville, Lupin, Sirius, Draco, etc..) he has harmed.

I mean, you can't go through life being a destructive force and then at the last moment say "Take my life for yours" and suddenly be on the side of the White Hats. It's too screwy.

If Peter sacrificed his life for Harry's would you suddenly think he was on the side of "right" and all of his weasliness was forgiven?



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  20:36:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Convincing me that Snape is on the side of the Order will be tricky. First, there will have to be a concrete explanation from Dumbledore (or a very reliable agent of Dumbledore) regarding what happened on the tower, but for me that alone is not enough. (Dumbledore always did believe that Snape was on his side, correctly or incorrectly.) Snape will have to back up Dumbledore's explanation with specific future actions ... for example, helping Harry in some significant way that only he can. It can't be a one-and-out attempt, either; it will take some sort of genuine sustained effort on Snape's part. I need to see Snape consistently do things that do not advance him personally. (I think that's what Ben is getting at too.)

While it's true that Snape may have aided the Order at times in the past, he never proved that he was genuinely on their side. Up to this point I think he exploited Dumbledore's trust to get what he wanted for himself, and now he can do the same with Voldemort if he so chooses. To convince me that he is truly on the side of good, he will have to take a definite unambiguous stand for Harry and the Order. He can't keep straddling the fence with his actions so as to garner maximum benefit from both sides while protecting himself from being incriminated by either.

I second what Tsuki said about instincts. My heartfelt instinct also tells me that Snape can't be trusted ... it's a feeling that comes from the gut, and I'm sure JKR intended it that way. These books are more about heart and instinct than they are about strategy and cunning plans. In fact, cunning plans usually end up falling flat on their faces. What happened on the tower felt very wrong to me. Even if it were fully explained and backed up to the point that I beleived Snape was truly on Dumbledore's side, I doubt I personally could ever find it admirable or even justifiable. If I do end up differing from the author on that point, so be it.

I admit that my threshold of proof where Snape is concerned is very high. However, no other character has so much to live down, and so much that can't possibly be lived down (as AMC so rightly pointed out). I do think he can be forgiven for what he's done, but there's still no excuse for him.

Edited by - n/a on 07/05/2006 20:43:27
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  22:33:05  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Yes, I require the impossible. I also require that, after the impossible occurs, Snape dies.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2006 :  23:18:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

I also require that, after the impossible occurs, Snape dies.



*Hangs a picture of MrBen in the S.I.N.U.S. Hall of Fame, with those sage words emblazoned underneath*


That looks lovely! A toast to Ben!

Pixie, I agree. I guess that's why I said assisting or attempting to kill Voldy would be sufficient proof, but now that you mention it, that isn't proof that he's on the Order's side, it's just proof that he thinks they will win out over V. So we will be convinced if 1. there's an explanation for his AK of Dumbledore and significant, sustained assistance to Harry in his Book 7 tasks that cannot be interpreted as Snape once again playing both sides.

And I would also like to state that even if Snape turns out to be on the side of Right I will always consider him a Nasty, Underhanded Slimeball for all he has deliberately done to hurt innocent people in the first 6 books. S.I.N.U.S. rules!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2006 :  03:23:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*sets new fluffy bed out for Slushy*

I feel such love in this thread. Not for Snape, of course, but for each other. We're such a small group and we need to stick together.

quote:
What would it take for us to believe that Snape has the whtie hats' best interests at heart, that he's been justified in all his slimey actions?


Snape's past actions have almost always had his best interests at heart. Nothing he does in the future will convince me he's ever been or will be on the white hats side.

quote:
I will always consider him a Nasty, Underhanded Slimeball for all he has deliberately done to hurt innocent people in the first 6 books. S.I.N.U.S. rules!


*places picture of AMC on the wall next to MrBen with those words under it*

That should be our group motto!

Proud member of SINUS

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2006 :  11:22:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ooo thank you! Yes, we're a warm and fuzzy group, united in our distaste for the greasy git.

Actually, there are more S.I.N.U.S. members than those that post - Cour was a member as was Nuggy and possibly Emma in her last incarnation. I can't remember exactly but it doesn't matter - what matters is we're here and we hate Snape. All like-minded souls are welcome.

I love this thread, I like just hanging out here because it's so blessedly free of Snape-love. It's so... refreshing.

So - here's a question to S.I.N.U.S. - Ben asked what you would need to see to convince you Snape was on the side of good. But what do you expect Snape's role to be in Book 7?

I have many possible plots in mind but here's the one I think of most often: I expect Snape to try to cover his bases by communicating with the Ministry of Magic secretly to stay on their good side. I expect Harry will continue to hear conflicting reports of Snape until the end of the book and will have to choose whether to believe them or not - and Harry will be faced with the same choice DD had regarding Snape and he will decide to trust Snape again because he is Dumbledore's man. I think Snape will prove to be the ultimate weasel but Harry will triumph over his treachery.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2006 :  11:55:07  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
No, I don't like that. I don't need to read another Snape-ecentric book (although I suppose I would argue that HBP really didn't have that much to do with Snape). How about the only reference is somewhere in the last chapter... "Oh, and did you know that Snape was evil this whole time? He's been playing us off against one another. I'm not sorry he died the way he did."
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2006 :  13:35:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TeeHee, MrBen!

I've fallen in love with U-No-Poo's idea that Harry will spare Snape's life when they meet again. Maybe even forgive him. I do think that Snape is a stumbling block that Harry needs to get past, a sort of warm-up to hone the skills he'll need to fight Voldemort. That is, Harry needs to remain pure of heart and his soul whole, but tempered, to stand a chance against the big V. Snape will unwittingly help him do that.

I hope you understand what I mean by Harry forgiving Snape. Harry's forgiveness would not exonerate Snape for all the horrible things he's done, nor would it make Snape a nice man. Forgiving a murderer does not make him any less of a murderer. In fact, it would have very little to do with Snape at all, and everything to do with Harry. It would purify Harry's heart, which I think is essential to his ability to fight Voldemort. He needs to learn how to release his anger and focus on love. Corny as that sounds (and yes, it nearly makes me gag), the L-word seems to be where Harry's greatest strength lies, and where the series is headed.

God, you all are going to kick me out soon!

Yay, Rah! We're well over 100 posts! Long live SINUS!

Edited by - n/a on 07/06/2006 13:39:30
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2006 :  14:19:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Woo-hoo, so we are!

Pixie, there's nothing wrong with a bit of sentiment - especially where our hero Harry is concerned.

I totally agree that it's Harry's mindset that matters and that it's his purity of soul that will carry the day, not complex plots and clever schemes. It's one of the major reasons I tend not to believe in Grand Plans - it takes away from Harry and his struggle as the Hero to have all these machinations setting up a spy to assist him. And Ben, I wasn't thinking of a Snape-centric book at all - that would be awful! This must be a Harry-centric book - they all have been, after all.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2006 :  00:49:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
So - here's a question to S.I.N.U.S. - Ben asked what you would need to see to convince you Snape was on the side of good. But what do you expect Snape's role to be in Book 7?


Protecting Malfoy from Voldie's wrath is tops on my list. After that, he'll probably spend his time trying to play both sides of the fence. The good side won't believe anything he says though, especially those in the Order. The Ministry might be willing to listen given how desperate they are for info on Voldie.

quote:
How about the only reference is somewhere in the last chapter... "Oh, and did you know that Snape was evil this whole time? He's been playing us off against one another. I'm not sorry he died the way he did."


I like that. That would be good too.

Proud member of SINUS

Order of the Bookmark
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fox
Addled

United Kingdom
55 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2006 :  04:47:52  Show Profile  Click to see fox's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote

"stand up and take out your wand, Potter"
order of the bookmark

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2006 :  13:19:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... I think someone just poked their head in here and made a face. How odd.

*Relaxes in her squashy chair and has a hot toddy*


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2006 :  11:40:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I need to get off my duff and get some chores done. I'm going to see my family one of whom, my brother, is not only convinced that Snape is Good but is also that Dumbledore is not dead... I love my bro but.. really. Goes to show you, even in the best of families these odd quirks can show up.

......

Snape Luv vs. Me



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2006 :  12:20:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TeeHee! No such problems in my family. My mom is even convinced that Snape is so evil that he's planning to knock off Voldemort and take over the Death Eaters himself. This is coming from a former catholic shool teacher who is widely considered to be one of the nicest people in town. And to think, people claim that SINUS is immature and hate-filled. They just don't get it. (see avatar)
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2006 :  12:26:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
People claim S.I.N.U.S. is immature and hate-filled? Why I never! I'd be happy to retaliate by outlining exactly how silly and childish it is to completely deny the possibility of Snape being evil simply because you have an irrational attachment to the character fueled by too much fanon-reading... but I'm far too kind and mature a person for that.

I love your avatar, Pixie.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2006 :  19:03:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What's amazing to me, is that I haven't met anyone in real life who thinks Snape is good, going to be redeemed, or any of the like. I only know people online who think that. When I tell some people in RL about the things I read online, (esp about Snape) I get looks like this: or . And the looks are usually followed by "What?"

Proud member of SINUS

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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  15:31:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Finally I have arrived!

I had a brief gander over on the s.i.n.e thread....honestly. Glad to have found home at last. I love the decor and what you've done with the place. I am also impressed that there are no holes in the wall around our dartboard - you so often see that - but we are really dedicated to hitting that hooked nose.

Lots of fun and over an hour spent reading this thread. I would offer some Fine Ales but I see that we only drink the hard stuff here, and hooray for that. A double firewhisky to warm the cockles, if you don't mind, Slushy.

Well *throws feet over ottoman in unnecessary dramatic style* I'll be boring and point out a couple of things I spotted as I read (sorry, old habits die hard). I think canon tells us that Lily and James had only been in hiding from Voldemort a week when they were betrayed. No idea where that is, but I'm pretty sure its right, and there have been posts where we assume they were hiding for months.

Pixie, of your many brilliant posts, I really liked your comparison of Dudley Demented and Flight of the Prince. I have to go back and read them myself now, and I hope to come back and post on that.

I also applaud AMC's dedication to the thread, and for promoting distrust of Snape.

I would just like to say, HARRY DISTRUSTS SNAPE. Surely we trust Harry more than Dumbledore ultimately? Surely we NEED to trust Harry more than Dumbledore ultimately? Harry has always distrusted Snape, and whichever side Snape ultimately helps more than the other through his vacilations, (even if it is the good) Harry would still be right not to trust Snape, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. Dumbledore was wrong to trust the man, though perhaps right in his determination to trust rather than suspect, ideologically, still to put so much trust in a figure who had so much potential to abuse that trust cannot have been wise.

I will now try to limit my use of caps lock, and the word 'ultimately'

I have to say that I loved AMC's foloowing comment:

He said it was a miserable day so I would assume February or March but in Northern England I'm sure you can have miserable days in April!

I did appreciate the exclamation mark, but still loved the comment. There speaks a woman for whom 'seasons' has meaning. When you get the Gulf Stream bringing rain from the Atlantic in five day cycles, you know that Dumbledore's miserable day would have happened in every one of all twelve months.

Who has the darts? I feel a sudden need to assert my SINUS credentials.

Newguise xxx

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  15:35:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*zooms in*

*presents Newguise with double firewhisky and warm savory munchies*

*gets out best dart set*

*straightens dartboard*

*dusts and straigtens AMC's and Ben's pictures on the wall*

*bows deeply*

*zooms out*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  17:59:06  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I have a headache. I may need a bubble-head charm to keep the noise of Snape's nose being punctured down.
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2006 :  20:48:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Welcome Home, Newguise! I see you found the cushy chair we've been saving for you. And Slushy has you all taken care of? Wonderful!

Now on to the discussion ...

quote:
I think canon tells us that Lily and James had only been in hiding from Voldemort a week when they were betrayed. No idea where that is, but I'm pretty sure its right, and there have been posts where we assume they were hiding for months.

Harry learned from Cornelius Fudge in The Marauder's Map chapter of PoA that Lily and James were killed a barely week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed. However, according to JKR, they were planning to go into hiding as early as Harry's christening:

quote:
"When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately."

So I guess it's possible that James and Lily went into hiding of some sort months before the Fidelius Charm was performed. Then when they became aware that someone was informing Voldemort of their movements, they had to take more drastic measures. Dumbledore did tell them at that point that the Fidelius Charm was their best bet.


quote:
Harry has always distrusted Snape, and whichever side Snape ultimately helps more than the other through his vacilations, (even if it is the good) Harry would still be right not to trust Snape, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. Dumbledore was wrong to trust the man, though perhaps right in his determination to trust rather than suspect, ideologically, still to put so much trust in a figure who had so much potential to abuse that trust cannot have been wise.

Hear, Hear! You know, we really haven't been abusing the old Greasy Git properly enough lately. And it's such good fun, too.

*carefully aims dart*

Whoops, missed his nose and hit his eye. Damn!

*aims another dart*

*punctures great greasy zit on slimeball's chin*

This never gets old. My aim is a little off tonight, but this game is still sooooo satisfying.




Edited by - n/a on 07/13/2006 20:56:21
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Newguise
Barmy

United Kingdom
269 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2006 :  13:24:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Warm savoury munchies? Slushy you little star. Ha! I'm so bad at darts, it's hysterical. Gosh I didn't think anything would part that greasy mop...I love moving wizard pictures. Of course, the fact he keeps trying to duck is even funnier - who put the charm on the poster which doesn't allow him to leave it?

Snape can not have existed in the middle of these two powerful wizards by being totally loyal to one side. If he had been, I think he would have been found out one way or the other. I also think that Dumbledore knew that. He was sure that unconditional trust was the most likely way to earn some sort of positive response from Snape who wants recognition for his achievements more than anything else in life. He may have been right. But was trusting Snape to that degree an acceptable risk? When the man is so slippery, and so much is at stake - also so many people's lives, was that gamble too big?

I suppose in a way we must think of Dumbledore like a General. He was marshalling a force to respond to Voldemort, in a state of open war. What do you make of his tactics since Voldemort's return? He had a huge advantage in that he knew exactly what had happened moments later, because Harry could tell him, so he was in a strong position. Snape was always a major part of his plan and everyone else went along with it.

I was reading the chapter where Lupin talks to Harry about trusting Dumbledore in HBP last night. I couldn't help but think that Lupin's trust in Dumbledore's judgement was due to the gratitude he felt towards Dumbledore for having him at Hogwarts as a boy and a teacher. Which is all fine and good, but not necessarily the best criteria on which to judge whether he was doing the right thing in a war.

Dumbledore is such a big part of wizard's lives when they are young - as their headmaster, that he commands that respect in a huge proportion of the population. We think of Snape and Sirius as trapped in their school days, but in some way, isn't everyone's obedience to Dumbledore, (their wise teacher quite literally), a bit the same?

Harry does respect Dumbledore but his experience of Voldemort suggests to me that he has a much better idea of the risks and of what is at stake than the others. For this reason he didn't trust Dumbledore's protection of the Philosopher's Stone, or his reassurances with regard to Snape and Malfoy. If they are weak links, then the implications of that are real to Harry in a way they are not real to the Order members. They haven't faced Voldemort. Harry has, and Snape has too, and that makes them understand how serious this whole thing is in a way that the others don't. I think Hermione says that herself in the D.A. They haven't faced Voldemort, and they don't get it.

I think Harry is therfore in a better position than anyone else to make judgements about risk in relation to Voldemort. I also think that Dumbledore's own magical ability made him see Voldemort as less of a threat than Harry does.

Newguise xxx
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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2006 :  17:30:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

TeeHee! No such problems in my family. My mom is even convinced that Snape is so evil that he's planning to knock off Voldemort and take over the Death Eaters himself.


That's actually what I'm beginning to wonder myself.

heh..he'll have to come up with his own signature because this one will be passe

quote:
Originally posted by Newguise
I think Harry is therfore in a better position than anyone else to make judgements about risk in relation to Voldemort. I also think that Dumbledore's own magical ability made him see Voldemort as less of a threat than Harry does.

Newguise xxx


I agree. And I have a feeling a lot of the goal of the books is meant for kids to feel empowered. By showing that all adults aren't good and just..and that adults make mistakes...It allows kids the 'right' to stand up for themselves. I definitely don't think she thinks kids should be seen and not heard. Or that kids lack proper judgement. Or that kids lack the ability to change the world. Harry learning these things over time actually strengthens him. And it gives readers hope that they should listen to themselves...trust their own judgement...and speak up when things don't seem right or just.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2006 :  02:40:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yay! Nuggy made it over!

I've been on vacation but this is the first place I stopped by - it must be the excellent refreshments - I mean the excellent company - we keep here.

Two of your fine and intelligent statements hit me as interesting when put together:
quote:
Originally posted by Newguise

(Dumbledore) was sure that unconditional trust was the most likely way to earn some sort of positive response from Snape...

I was reading the chapter where Lupin talks to Harry about trusting Dumbledore in HBP last night. I couldn't help but think that Lupin's trust in Dumbledore's judgement was due to the gratitude he felt towards Dumbledore for having him at Hogwarts as a boy and a teacher.


We have many examples of people who trust and believe in Dumbledore because he gave them second chances when public opinion was against them: Hagrid, Lupin, Moody and Sirius all qualify. But we also have people DD trusted who repaid that trust with questionable loyalty, Mungdungus being one. He deserted his post guarding Harry for a business deal. He tried to use the Order's HQ as a safe house for stolen goods. After Sirius's death he stole from Sirius's house. So DD's trust alone is no guarantee that a wizard is truly trust-worthy.

When you think of the imagery of the "Order of the Phoenix" - what does the Phoenix represent? Rebirth. Arising from the flames. Making a new start. Dumbledore gave all of these people fresh starts, opportunities to arise from dark pasts, but the important thing is not that they were given the chance but what they made of it. Their choices, not Dumbledore's trust, was what mattered. So I think Dumbledore is wrong in HBP when he says to Draco it was his mercy that mattered - yes mercy is critical. Yes, offering trust and second chances was Dumbledore's finest weapon to help people make good out of bad in their lives. But that trust alone was not a sufficient "good", ultimately it was the subsequent choices these wizards made that mattered.

I almost wonder if everyone in the Order hadn't been given, at some point, a second chance. Alberforth, for instance. But what about the Weasleys? What about Dumbledore? Did he have a less than stellar past?

I don't think Dumbledore saw Voldemort as less of a threat than Harry. I personally think Dumbledore was operating at a much more cosmic level - the battle of Good vs. Evil in the world. He did not believe in dealing with evil on its own terms - he disagreed with using the Dementors as prison guards, even though they were quite effective, because he didn't think the Ministry should be allied with such foul creatures. He was never harsh or cruel to even the harshest and cruelest of people. That's not just a sign of how "nice" he was - I think it was a sign of how wise he was. He knew he could not fight evil with evil, he could only fight evil by spreading good and by appealing to the good in other wizards.

Harry is 16 - he can't possibly see things at this level. But he IS good, he is as purely good as a young wizard can be. Dumbledore's role was to spread good and encourage good and he did, but he made critical mistakes in under-estimating other wizards' abilities (including Harry's and Draco's) and over-estimating his own foresight. But I think the "mistakes" he made in trusting certain wizards were deliberate efforts to save their souls when he knew full well they could fall into evil very easily.




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2006 :  04:37:50  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Teehee... Albus Dubledore, the aging hippie spreading the good vibes. I agree with your Dumbledore analysis. :)

Also, snape sucks.
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