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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  02:15:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know, this place needs a pensieve - has anyone got one about them?

Thoughts to put in:

Snape was ordered by LV to take a place at Hogwarts - he applied for the job before Harry was born.

Snape joined DD (and presumably Hogwarts' teaching staff) some time before Harry's parents were killed, therefore putting him in the clear from prosecution as a DE.

DD testifies that Snape turned spy at great personal risk before LV's downfall, meaning Snape must have given over some useful information to DD.

DD's fateful interview with Trelawny (which Snape, then an applicant, overheard) was in the Spring, but Harry's parents were killed on Halloween - so there's about 18 months' lag between the prophecy and the attack on the Potters.

If Snape's story was that he was full of remorse when he realized that LV was going to destroy the Potters, he could not possibly have told that tale until after July, as LV needed to see who had their July babies before he decided who to target.

Snape either joined Hogwarts before he came to DD with his story or was not been hired until the year after he initially applied. More likely the latter story.

Here's what I make of it:
------------------------------
Spring 1980. LV tells Snape to apply for a job at Hogwarts by LV.
DD refuses to hire him because DD suspects he is a DE.
Snape goes back to LV with the news of the prophecy and tries to find a way into Hogwarts.

July 1980. Harry is born.

Fall 1980- Spring 1981. LV decides who to target.

Spring 1981 Snape decides he can use this to get in with DD - he tells DD that he is deeply sorry for his actions now that he knows the Potters are targeted. (Please note - if he cared for Lily this might have an element of truth in it)
DD believes his story, apparently welcomes him "with open arms", takes him on as a teacher and sends James and Lily into hiding. In this way Snape "repays" his debt to James.

October 1981 - Lily and James are killed, LV's power is destroyed.

November 1981 - Longbottoms are tortured.

December 1981 - Trials of DEs where DD testifies that Snape has been a useful spy for the Order.

The reason I needed to get this down was I was trying to figure out where Snape would have been when the Potters were killed. He would have been at the Hogwarts Halloween feast, right? And a professor's absence would have been noted, I would think. So maybe that lets Snape out on that charge.

I was also trying to figure out how the story Snape told DD (and DD told Harry) ties in with the story Snape told Bella. It seems clear there's been a lot of lying going back a long way, so it's hard to sort out.

It's a pretty long time lag between the prophecy and the attack on the Potters - I wonder why?

If not Snape, who was with LV when he attacked the Potters?

It seems to me that Snape has done his best to become a "right hand man" to several powerful wizards (LV, Malfoy, DD) ... why would someone who considers himself a "Prince" settle for being a lieutenant?




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 06/28/2006 02:19:13
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  12:16:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been spending way too much time here - Slushy, can you fix me a "get to work" potion? I need one, desperately!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  15:31:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I was trying to figure out where Snape would have been when the Potters were killed. He would have been at the Hogwarts Halloween feast, right?

Yes, it seems that Snape was already a teacher at Hogwarts when Voldemort fell; He said as much to Bellatrix at Spinner's End. But that doesn't mean he had to be at the Halloween feast ... His double-agent work surely took him away from Hogwarts on a regular basis, and Dumbledore wouldn't be averse to letting him skipping the feast in the name of spy work. All he needed do was ask.

quote:
If not Snape, who was with LV when he attacked the Potters?

Well, there's the unsubstantiated report (found on the Quick Quotes Quill) that JKR told a fan that Peter Pettigew took Voldemort's wand the day the Potters were killed, and hid it. Athough this report is not confirmed, it explains perfectly how Peter had access to Voldemort's wand to return it to him all those years later. No one else could have had the wand. Peter would have needed to be very close that night to have seen what happened and to have retrieved the wand before the curious droves arrived. And with Godric's Hollow being apparently named after Godric Gryffindor, it's quite likely there were witches and wizards nearby to raise the alarm.

If Pettigrew was there, then Snape was either a) not there, so as to be completely unaware of who the true betrayer was (as he claimed later in his condemnation of Sirius); or b) a nasty, underhanded slimeball in that he knew that Peter was the betrayer and never told anyone, not even Dumbeldore, in order to let Sirius to rot at the hands of the Dementors. Snape is an excellent actor, leaving both options wide open.

If Snape was there, he must have vanished or hidden the same moment the Voldemort did. It was most certainly Hagrid that pulled baby Harry from the wreckage of the house. "It was me what rescued Harry form Lily an' James's house after the was killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, an' his parents dead ... an' Sirius Black turns up, on that flyin' motorbike he used ter ride." No sign of Severus Snape. And Hagrid's no liar.

quote:
It seems to me that Snape has done his best to become a "right hand man" to several powerful wizards (LV, Malfoy, DD) ... why would someone who considers himself a "Prince" settle for being a lieutenant?

Snape is very sneaky, weaselly, and closed by nature ... being a spy and advisor is his niche and it suits him perfectly. It does garner him a considerable amount of power and respect, which is what he craves. To be a true leader, however, Snape would have to openly commit to one side or the other. That means showing his true colors and his emotions, something the closed-off Snape is not able to do.

Personally, I think he likes the power of being able to play one side against the other by pulling strings behind the scenes. Even his own nickname "half-blood prince" was unknown to others. Remus never heard it, and I doubt Snape flaunted his half-blood status in front of his Death Eater cronies, either. However, he delighted in knowing it behind their backs ... making fools of them all, if only in his own mind.


Edited by - n/a on 06/28/2006 15:36:07
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  16:24:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ahh - the ultimate power player, the force behind the throne? Kind of like the Karl Rove of HPverse? Whoops, sorry that slipped out.

But... he does have to take orders a lot. And I can't imagine he enjoys that. Voldemort certainly think he's in charge and Dumbledore, although he is polite about it, is just as high-handed. So maybe that's where Snape gets his jollies - knowing he's betraying the trust of the very people he's outwardly obeying?

Come to think of it - it is pretty damning that he says he didn't know who the real betrayer was. He's the Order's spy in the DEs, he's a trusted DE and he was the only DE who knew about the prophecy, he definitely knew that Voldemort had fingered the Potters because otherwise he wouldn't have had that remorseful story for DD. So he knew all that... but he didn't know that Peter Pettigrew was a DE-wannabe and Sirius Black was not??? They were his classmates! It seems pretty hard to buy.

Come to think of it - why didn't DD question Snape more closely when he apprehended Sirius in PoA? Snape was his inside man - how could Snape have been truly convinced of Black's guilt and have DD not believe him? Or was this yet another example of DD wanting to give people a second chance - perhaps he thought Sirius was guilty but didn't want to see him given up the the Dementor's Kiss. I know he never agreed with the MoM using Dementors as guards.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  16:25:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
By the way, the SINEs are spying on us with their invisible ears! Wannabes. heeheehee.

Seriously, guys, come on over. We don't bite ... not hard, that is. :)
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  16:31:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Pixie doesn't, but I do!

Seriously? I can't imagine why - I don't read the SINE thread, I assure you!



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  16:39:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Come to think of it - it is pretty damning that he says he didn't know who the real betrayer was.


According to Sirius, all the other Death Eaters did know:

"I heard things in Azkaban ... Peter. They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them ... I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters on your information ... and Voldemort met his downfall there. And not all Vodlemort's supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they? There are still plenty out here, biding their time, pretending they've seen the error of their ways. ... If they ever got wind you were still alive, Peter --"

If all those other Death Eaters knew who the real turncoat was, surely Snape did too. Yet he said nothing. I can't answer as to why Dumbledore never questioned this ... or perhaps he did and Snape answered convincingly enough that he didn't know. Dumbledore was a trusting man who always wanted to see the best in people.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  16:57:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie


According to Sirius, all the other Death Eaters did know:

"I heard things in Azkaban ... Peter. They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them ... I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters on your information ... and Voldemort met his downfall there. And not all Vodlemort's supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they? There are still plenty out here, biding their time, pretending they've seen the error of their ways. ... If they ever got wind you were still alive, Peter --"

If all those other Death Eaters knew who the real turncoat was, surely Snape did too. Yet he said nothing. I can't answer as to why Dumbledore never questioned this ... or perhaps he did and Snape answered convincingly enough that he didn't know. Dumbledore was a trusting man who always wanted to see the best in people.



Still - that makes Dumbledore out to be an awful sap, doesn't it? I mean, wanting to think the best of people doesn't mean being wantonly blind.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  17:27:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

Whoops, sorry that slipped out.

*snorts*

quote:
Originally posted by AMC

Still - that makes Dumbledore out to be an awful sap, doesn't it? I mean, wanting to think the best of people doesn't mean being wantonly blind.

There's another aspect I always consider in Dumbledore also. And that's the fact he allows people space to make their own choices and own decisions. Sort of his own version of a 'prime directive'. He tries to watch people and guide people. But ultimately he doesn'e feel it's his place to make the decision for them. The notion is loftier and more zen and complicated of course. But I can definitely see it being soemthing Dumbledore would have prescribed to.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  17:46:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No doubt Tsuki - I think of Dumbledore as a wizarding version of a Zen master.

But when it comes to trust - and he says repeatedly that he trusts Severus Snape - don't you think it odd that he wouldn't question Snape's eagerness to condemn a man he must have known wasn't guilty? Actually two men - he was just as eager to have Lupin arrested and poor Lupin was just standing there! I mean, I'm sure DD knew that Snape was not exactly a nice guy .. and of course it was critical to give him his "space".. but the whole-hearted trust thing just throws me.

I linked to an article a bit ago where someone espoused the notion that DD had a choice - to trust or not to trust Snape. And he chose trust as the only possible way to reach out. But - wouldn't you think that hard evidence one way or the other would figure into re-thinking that decision eventually?

By the way - it's nice to see you here! Help yourself to chocolates and take a squashy chair - we've got plenty, as you can see!




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  18:17:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still think Dumbledore knew what he was doing. Or at least he thought he had a handle on it. And controlled it in as much of a sense that he could. Beyond that he'd have been interfering with things that were beyond his control. And he possibly he could have made things worse if he stepped in more. A 'butterfly effect' for lack of a better term. In that case intuition...trust...and seeing the best in people you feel are still 'reachable' is all you really can put your faith in.

As far as trusting Snape implicitly....The only thing I can see make him say that is an unbreakable vow. And I think Snape could work it where he kept a vow with Dumbedore...But still ends up bad. I think it's possible to keep lots of promises to lots of people...and then finally box yourself in a corner.

I don't know though...Because He says he trusts Hagrid too.

....

Maybe he trusts people for different reasons in different ways...

Anyway..I just still think there's good explanations. I don't think that Dumbledore was doddering and useless like some people seem to think. Maybe he made mistakes...But some of the mistakes he's being blamed for I think will ultimately be explained in the end. Unless the lesson ends up being 'everyone makes mistakes...even (and especially including) adults... But that's sort of simplistic.. Somehow I think it's got to all be bigger then 'Dumbledore messed up'. But I also think it's too simplistic to think, 'doink! Snape really was good after all. I can't believe I second guessed that' So the only thing that makes sense to me right now is for whatever motive Snape is making promises to everyone and thinks he's 'outclevered' everyone...But in fact all he's done is eventually box himself in a corner.

I guess only time will tell.

Edited by - Tsuki Keta on 06/28/2006 18:20:10
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  20:15:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Tsuki!

I'm a great believer that faith in other people will be rewarded in the long run. I still believe it with Snape ... although he has undoubtedly done some hideous things over the years (and we won't let anyone forget! ). But sometime, somewhere Snape may be in a position to tip the scales, and he may very well choose to do the right thing as a direct result of the influence Dumbledore had on him. In that way I don't think it was a mistake for Dumbledore to have shown him trust and compassion. In my mind, Dumbledore's plea of "Severus, please," had nothing to do with Snape either saving or killing him, because his death was pretty much a given at that point ... he was begging that all the trust he placed in Snape not be wasted, that all the good he'd taught him not be forgotten.

quote:
I still think Dumbledore knew what he was doing. Or at least he thought he had a handle on it. And controlled it in as much of a sense that he could. Beyond that he'd have been interfering with things that were beyond his control. And he possibly he could have made things worse if he stepped in more. A 'butterfly effect' for lack of a better term. In that case intuition...trust...and seeing the best in people you feel are still 'reachable' is all you really can put your faith in.


I think that's a pretty good synopsis of Dumbledore's philosophy. What gives me pause about it, though, is at what point it stops being wonderfully zen and starts becoming, for lack of a better term, a cop-out. For me, the tipping point involves risk to innocents. That's why I questioned Dumbledore's lack of action at certain times ... He was no doddering old fool; he was a brilliant and powerful man. When two of his innocent students nearly died, it may have been the time to do something personally, rather than place his best trust in others.

quote:
The only thing that makes sense to me right now is for whatever motive Snape is making promises to everyone and thinks he's 'outclevered' everyone...But in fact all he's done is eventually box himself in a corner.

I agree. Hopefully when that corner appears, so will Snape's chance to remember Dumbledore's influence, and make a difference by doing the "right" thing.

There, you've seen my soppy, optimistic side. Somebody get me a firewhiskey, quick! [%]

Edited by - n/a on 06/28/2006 22:09:41
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  00:21:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Double firewhiskey for the dreamer!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  11:37:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I agree. Hopefully when that corner appears, so will Snape's chance to remember Dumbledore's influence, and make a difference by doing the "right" thing.

There, you've seen my soppy, optimistic side. Somebody get me a firewhiskey, quick! [%]



I used to think that too. And I actually really hoped it was true. I wanted him to be the one who could walk away and make it stick and prove that it could be done. And to overcome a bad childhood. I wanted it for Draco also. Not because I like either of them. wanted it to say something about human nature instead I guess.

And maybe it will still happen. But now I'm leaning towards thinking that's just 'too easliy wrapped up' for JK's thought process. I don't know why. There's just something bugging me too deeply about the whole thing.

So...for the past couple of books I've been leaning towards Snape really is bad. I don't know whether I hope I'm wrong. Or whether I hope I'm right. Or whether it matters either way. I trust JK's writing more then anything. And I like her explanations for things. So...it will be fun to see how it really does all play out.

And even if Snape doesn't turn out to be good in the books...There are plenty of people in the books that have proved positive things to me. Or there are other people who could have a turn-around other then Snape. Plus JK's shown good in people in a 'real' and non-schmutzy way...so I'm sure I'm hooked until the end and will appreciate the resolve regardless. So Snape can go either way as far as I care. I just have an inkling at this point, it's bad.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  12:44:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I think JKR has done her best to present evidence for both sides: after Book 7 she'll be able to say "How could people think Snape was good? Look at all the horrible things he has done and how destructive he is." or "How could people think Snape was all bad? Surely you had to know Albus Dumbledore had more sense than the completely trust an utter rotter." and she she'll make us all feel like fools or geniuses, depending on which way we lean! I'm leaning bad, but I totally understand the arguments for good - well, not good but not evil.

What I do not support at ALL is the "Snape as Hero" concept - that Snape is misunderstood, that he's had a rough life, that he's a loner, desperate for companionship yet unable to accept any.. sob, sob. That's nonsense. We have Harry, our true hero, raised with no love, raised in isolation, bullied, outcast, mocked and beaten - and he comes through with an untarnished soul and a deep desire to help other people. That's a true hero.

Snape may or may not be trying to help the Order - who knows? But he's a rotten person - he torments the weak, especially the students entrusted to him. He pokes at Sirius like a nasty little boy would poke at a cornered animal. He has flubbed the largest task that we have seen given to him (Occlumency lessons with Harry), because he couldn't master his own temper. He has consistently tried to limit or stunt Harry's career at Hogwarts. He's not a little boy, he's a grown man with a lot of history to make up for - even if he is on the side of the Order, he's not done a very good job of supporting it's goals. Potentially there is a ton of "behind the scenes" work he could have done for the Order and if we are finally privy to any of that in Book 7, it could tip the balance. But in terms of what we've actually seen him do - it's mostly bad or at least inadequate to support the supposedly "reformed" character he has become.

So I'm with you, Tsuki - it could go either way but I'm leaning bad. All I really care about is that JKR will stay consistent and not do a U-turn showing Snape as a totally misunderstood, pathetic character - and I trust her that she won't. I think most of that is fan-fic or fan-fantasy, not canon.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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U-No-Poo
Addled

133 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  19:23:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC
What I do not support at ALL is the "Snape as Hero" concept - that Snape is misunderstood, that he's had a rough life, that he's a loner, desperate for companionship yet unable to accept any.. sob, sob. That's nonsense. We have Harry, our true hero, raised with no love, raised in isolation, bullied, outcast, mocked and beaten - and he comes through with an untarnished soul and a deep desire to help other people. That's a true hero.



Amen! I want to see Dumbledore's good influence and sacrifice have an effect on Snape and Harry and the outcome of book 7, but not have Snape steal Harry's thunder. But I agree that is not where JKR's heading. I think what will happen is more along the lines of Harry mastering his hatred towards Snape and maybe save his life or something of the sort. Snape will hate him even more in return, but some good will come out of Harry's generosity.

A question about the timeline... When do you reckon the prophecy was made? DD was interviewing Trelawney for a job interview, so do you reckon it was June/ July 1980? Both Snape and Wormtail turned spy one year before Voldemort's death, so maybe this ocurred at the time that Voldemort found out about Harry's birth and decided to target him. Meanwhile, Wormtail might have been approached by Voldemort or his Death Eaters and convinced to spy on the Potters for them. I think the Potters were in hiding elsewhere for a while before Wormtail was made Secret-Keeper, which would explain the time lag.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  22:24:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Trelawny said "born as the seventh month comes to an end".. meaning July of that year, so Trelawny made the prophecy some time in the year Harry was born, which is 1980 (per the lexicon and they're reliable). So Dumbledore was interviewing teachers some time in the Winter or Spring of 1980. He said it was a miserable day so I would assume February or March but in Northern England I'm sure you can have miserable days in April! Snape was also pursuing a job at the time so I assume it was around March, when teachers would normally be looking to arrange jobs for the next year.

The time lag is odd to me because Dumbledore says Snape immediately went to tell his "master" at the time, Voldemort. So even if the interview was in April and they had to wait to figure out who had babies in July... there was then a lag of 15 months between Harry's birth and the attempt to kill him. The prophecy says "born to those who have thrice defied Him" not "born to those who will thrice defy Him" so it isn't as if Voldy had to wait to see who it could be. So I still find it curious.

It is possible that it took that long to find a way through to the Potters - meaning Peter - and that Lily and James had been in hiding for over a year before they were found. But I kind of got the impression that Peter was in the service of the Dark Lord at the time he was made secret-keeper. That could be wrong.

Hi U-No-Poo! So happy to see all the familiar faces around. Have a squashy chair and a drink! I'm drinking hot lemon with rum.. have stupid summer cold, so forgive me if I'm hoarse.. or if I fall asleep in the middle of a sent..zzzzz


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  21:59:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd like to explore a new line of thought, based on two scenes canon. This is a subject the SINEs would probably welcome as manna from heaven, but I'd like to get you guys's thoughts on it, without enduring torrents of stomach-turning Snape-lurve.

The first scene happens in the first chapter of OotP: Dudley Demented, and the second in Flight of the Prince. Both scenes deal with bulllying and accusations of cowardice.

In Dudley Demented, it is actually Harry doing the bullying, taunting Dudley and threatening him with his wand, saying: "You need four mates behind you before you can beat up a ten-year-old." Then Dudley turns on Harry and accuses him of being a coward at night when he's talking in his sleep: "Come help me, Dad! Mum, come and help me! He's killed Cedric! Dad, help me!" Dudley's taunt incenses Harry to no end, making draw his wand and back Dudley to the wall. Yet despite fourteen years of bottled-up anger, Harry instinctively saves Dudley from the Dementors; he doesn't even thing about it, he simply does it because that's who he is.

In Flight of the Prince, the shoe is on the other foot. It is Snape saying to Harry, "Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" Then it was Snape who was incensed to the point of madness when Harry called him a coward. At that point, Snape hex-whips Harry across the face, then is driven away by Buckbeak before we can see what happens next.

What do you make of it? Knowing JKR, the scenes are too similar to be coincidence. Yet I can't help noticing that Harry behaved as a normal teenager, up to the point he instinctively saved Dudley when his true nature showed through. Snape was an adult, yet he was just as much of a drama-king in the face of Harry's taunts. What is causing Snape's anger? Is it arrested development fueled by a schoolboy grudge, or is it because Snape felt the sting of truth in Harry's accusations? (like Harry did at Dudley's?) Why do you think JKR would present these two complementary yet contradictory scenes?
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  22:52:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Personally, I think it's another example of JKR illustrating a key and recurring point - you are what your choices make you. Everybody feels anger. Everybody feels insulted and wants revenge sometimes - but you don't have to act on those feelings. You can either court the lower, easier reactions and justify yourself by saying "She made me do it" or "he shouldn't have said that" or you can recognize that those feelings come from your ego and let them go.

Snape shows again and again with Harry that he is not in control, as badly as he wants to be. And when his emotions are finally allowed to show, they are the emotions of a child or an adolescent, not an adult. He has grown old steeped in hatred and resentment but he has never grown up. He doesn't respond to Harry (or James's memory) like a mature adult. Harry, on the other hand, had almost always responded responsibly, even in his worst moments. Even after Snape has murdered his beloved mentor, Harry understands there are more important things than his own personal revenge - that level of maturity in a 16 year old is astonishing. So we see the two of them in parallel but simultaneously as opposites - the boy who has grown up and the man who may never do so.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2006 :  17:46:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with AMC. There is no way that Snape thinks of himself as a coward (well, maybe way deep down), but his reaction to Harry calling him a coward has more to do with stunted development and grudge holding than what he thinks of himself. Throughout Order, he constantly made references about how important to the Order his information was and the risks he was taking. Even DD admits that Snape still carries a school boy grudge.

quote:
I think what will happen is more along the lines of Harry mastering his hatred towards Snape and maybe save his life or something of the sort. Snape will hate him even more in return, but some good will come out of Harry's generosity.


That would be so great! Kind of goes along with what DD said to Voldemort "There are things worse than death, Tom". I think Snape would rather die than be saved by Harry.


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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2006 :  03:01:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I really like that!

Man, what a day! *Puts boots up on a Snape-head ottoman* It's hotter than Hades in my real life which is why I've permanently charmed the weather here to be cool and misty or rainy. It's such a relief to come on here and escape summer.

It's funny, Pixie, because I really truly do think Jo is an evil woman, putting all these semi-contradictory pieces into the books trying to mess with our tiny minds. I read a great thread (well part of it) over on Mugglenet about "Did Snape know Sirius was innocent". The funny part is that about 1/4 the way through the community had already split on very obvious lines - the Snape-fans insisting he didn't know and the Snape-haters insisting he must have.

Just to revisit this here - in the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA, Snape says to Harry:

"SILENCE! I WILL NOT BE SPOKEN TO LIKE THAT!" Snape shrieked, looking madder than ever. "Like father, like son, Potter. I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well-served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might have been mistaken in Black - now get out of the way or I will make you."

My take on this is Snape is either being honest and is crazed purely from his hatred of Sirius or Snape is being dishonest and crazed in his need to keep Pettigrew from being captured.

If He's being Honest:
According to Sirius, the DEs in Azkaban think that their "Order" spy double-crossed them. Theoretically, it is possible that no one other than Voldy knew the identity of that spy. So if we take that tack, if Snape did not know who the Order spy was, he could have thought it was Sirius Black. So.. remorseful Snape comes to DD and becomes an Order spy, but cannot figure out who the other spy is. The Potters go into hiding and the spy betrays them. Dumbledore testifies that Black was the Potters secret keeper, Black supposedly kills Pettigrew and 12 Muggles and goes to Azkaban. Snape has always hated Black anyway and perhaps he now resents Black more for betraying Lily (not James) to Voldemort. But does that explain his hurry to silence Black? For he is in a HUGE hurry - he doesn't want to hear any evidence, he doesn't want anyone else listening to the trio's story, he invents explanations why they should not be listened to and he wants the Dementor's Kiss applied immediately - he even expresses the hope to Fudge that Dumbledore won't make any difficulties about it. If Snape is fully convinced that Black is, indeed, a Death Eater and a murderer and a betrayer - what's his hurry? You'd think he'd love to see an old enemy twist in the wind. But he doesn't just want Sirius Black dead, he wants him silenced. And that makes me lean towards the other argument.

If he's being dishonest:
It all makes a lot of sense. He doesn't want to hear the information from the trio because the last thing he wants is to have the story circulated that Peter Pettigrew is alive. First off, this story lets Sirius off the hook, which Snape definitely would not want. Second, if Peter is found he might squeal like the rat he is... and he might have some incriminating things to say about Severus Snape, ex-Death-Eater and his role in the death of the Potters.

Also, if you believe (HBP) Dumbledore Snape was supposedly deeply remorseful over his role in the prophecy hearing that led to the Potters' death.. but it certainly doesn't seem like it at this point. When he speaks to Harry he puts the blame for their death squarely on James' shoulders for trusting Sirius Black - when we now know that the whole situation was in fact set up by Snape's spying in the first place. That's kind of a red flag there that Snape's not telling the truth.

But then we get back to Dumbledore - he believes the trio, he gives them the hint that allows them to save Sirius. But what about his behavior to Snape? DD ushers Snape personally out of the hospital ward before telling them what to do because it's evident Snape will not accept a word in favor of Sirius Black. He is amused at Snape's overwhelming fury over Sirius Black's escape and his certainty that Harry and Hermione were behind it all. It almost appears that DD is laughing at Snape here and he certainly isn't taking him into his confidence. How does this compute with Dumbledore's later assertion of his complete trust in Severus Snape?



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n/a
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Posted - 07/02/2006 :  13:40:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When you stop and consider all the times that Snape has really "lost it," the Marauders were always involved. The Shrieking Shack, The Hospital Wing after Sirius escaped, Snape's Worst Memory and his reaction to Harry seeing it, and in Flight of the Prince when Harry tried to use Snape's own spells on him "like his filthy father." It's clear that Snape can't overcome his adolescent grudge, and that this leads to his own undoing, even when he may well be trying to do something right.

I agree that this has to be one of the reasons JKR presents us with these little compare-and-contrast scenes. She shows us that Harry and Snape are alike in certain ways, and uses Snape as an example of what could happen to Harry if he doesn't mature beyond that point and learn to control his anger. She did the same thing with Sirius, but Snape will be a far greater challenge for Harry.

quote:
I think what will happen is more along the lines of Harry mastering his hatred towards Snape and maybe save his life or something of the sort. Snape will hate him even more in return, but some good will come out of Harry's generosity.


What a great idea! Harry has already shown that he doesn't have it in him to kill out of anger. In OotP, when Harry had just run into the Shrieking Shack and cornered Sirius Black, his heart was pounding with anger and desire to avenge his parents, and a little voice inside was urging him to "just kill him." However, despite everything, he couldn't bring himself to do it. Then he spared Pettigrew too. In contrast was Snape, promising "Give me a reason and I swear I'll do it," then trying to turn both Sirius and Lupin over the the Dementors. I have no doubt he would have done it.

Like AMC said, it all comes down to choices. Snape hasn't mastered his grudge, and has chosen badly again and again, even as an adult. Disaster follows him wherever he goes. Harry still has the chance to become a better person. He (and we) now know enough about Snape and his upbringing to possess the seeds of compassion, and if Harry can get over his anger, he will become the anti-Snape. If Harry does save Snape's life, I can't wait see what happens next.

Edited by - n/a on 07/02/2006 16:12:57
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n/a
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1483 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2006 :  17:12:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just came across this little snippet that gives us an idea who might have known about the Prophecy before Volemort fell (a subject we were discussing earlier):

quote:
MA: Did Dobby know about the prophecy?

JKR: No.
MA: Did he know about the Potters

JKR: He knew their story, but obviously his knowledge would be narrowed down to what was known in the Malfoy household.

Source: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005

So Dobby's knowledge was limited to what was known in the Malfoy house, and Dobby didn't know about the prophecy. Therefore, the prophecy probably wasn't known in the Malfoy house. Dobby was in the Malfoy's employ since well before Voldemort fell, and for years afterward. It's unlikely that anything that significant could have been discussed in their house without him ever overhearing it.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2006 :  01:26:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never thought Lucius knew of the prophecy - why would LV advertise that another wizard would have a power he knows not? But did Lucius know about the double-crossing Order spy?

I'm reading SS/PS to my 10 year old - I've tried for years to interest her in it and failed so I just started reading it one night and now she's hooked . Reading aloud is much slower, you need to read each word so I'm thinking some details will hit me anew and today something at the end of chapter 7 did - the first night at Hogwarts, Harry has a bad dream:

"Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully - and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking.

He rolled over and fell asleep again and when he woke the next day, he didn't remember the dream at all."

Two things interest me here:

1. The association of Quirrel's turban, Malfoy, Snape, a high laugh and the burst of green light (AK light). At this point in the book Harry doesn't understand the connection between any of them - it seems just like an anxiety dream but we, six books later, see clearly that all of the components of his dream are, have been or will be Voldemort's tools.

2. The insistence of the dream people that Harry should have been in Slytherin, that it was his destiny. We hear this over and over - Olivander tells him they expect "great things" from him like LV, the Sorting Hat tells him that he could be great and Slytherin would help him there, Snape says to Bella that when Harry arrived at Hogwarts they expected him to be the next great Dark Lord. But Harry turned his back on greatness as soon as he could. He refused Slytherin because he didn't want to join the wizards who had "gone bad".

Harry chose "Goodness" over "Greatness". By refusing to pursue greatness as his goal, Harry changed his destiny. I wonder if this will come into play later and I wonder if it explains why Snape truly stayed at Hogwarts after LV disappeared - he thought he'd be able to mentor the next great Dark Wizard. But Harry ruined that plan by becoming a Gryffindor, not a Slytherin.

Does anyone know for sure what Lily's House was?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 07/03/2006 01:30:58
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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
176 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2006 :  03:39:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Question: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name?
J.K. Rowling responds: Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally).

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-scholastic-chat.htm
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AMC
Mediwizard

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Posted - 07/03/2006 :  11:25:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, so why would Harry be even considered a strong candidate for Slytherin House by the Sorting Hat?

He had two Gryffindor parents.
He is not a pure-blood.
He's not all that ambitious (unless the desire for a normal life is great ambition).

He doesn't have any of the classic characteristics of a Slytherin. Is it the portion of Voldy's soul he possesses that qualifies him?




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Tsuki Keta
Addled

USA
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Posted - 07/03/2006 :  13:07:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC


He doesn't have any of the classic characteristics of a Slytherin. Is it the portion of Voldy's soul he possesses that qualifies him?



Most likely. But it could also be something more natural. He could be most like Gryffindor. But he could lean a little Slytherin just naturally. We aren't carbon copies of out parents so...Although parents are good indicators..we each have oour own individual slant also. Hermione's parents might have both been sorted into Ravenclaw had they been magical. But she skewed Gryffy.

It could also be a nature vs. nurture issue. Growing up the way he did could have him a little darker and more cometetive then if he'd grown up in a more mellow environment.

or...he could have been already somehow 'tuned in' to know his future and all it entailed. He knew some of the basic facts...It could have just been his internal conversation/struggle with himslef about what kind of person entered Slytherin. He knew he 'didn't' want to be a Slytherin. ANd the hat was merely picking up on his paranoia.

or it be a combination of all of those.
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n/a
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1483 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2006 :  17:59:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Okay, so why would Harry be even considered a strong candidate for Slytherin House by the Sorting Hat?

The bit of Volemort's soul might have something to do with it, but I think the Sorting Hat mostly keyed in on Harry's need to prove he was more than the inferior nobody that the Dursely made him out to be, and maybe even a great wizard like his father and mother.

The Hat's reasoning went something like this: "Lots of courage, not a bad mind, talent, and a nice thirst to prove yourself. Very difficult!" The Hat never actually mentioned a particular house until Harry started thinking "Not Slytherin!" At that point the Hat dangled the carrot. "You could be great, and Slytherin could help you on the way to greatness." I don't think the Hat had really decided at that point. It was simply testing Harry's ambition, and seeing what he'd do to be great. By refusing Slytherin on principle, Harry showed that he was really more of a Gryffindor at heart. (Even though he might have done well in Slytherin too.)

JKR has said that not all Slytherins are bad eggs; the Death Eater kids like Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are the minority. Maybe Harry's paranoia about Slytherin House wasn't entirely justified, but it worked out for the best in the end.

Edited by - n/a on 07/03/2006 18:02:04
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2006 :  18:54:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie
JKR has said that not all Slytherins are bad eggs

I should hope NOT - I'm a Slytherin myself, you know!

I do agree - in fact, I'm pretty sure that House Unity is going to be key in the Battle to save Hogwarts from Voldemort. The Sorting Hat said as much in OotP (and HBP but we missed it) - Voldemort is a great divider, Harry must be a force for unifying the Houses. And I think getting rid of Snape (and Malfoy) was an important first step there. Slytherin House under Slughorn will be a very different group. That's another reason I think Book 7 will still have a lot of Hogwarts action - the Houses have yet to learn how to unite and the Hat has told us over and over again that the ancient rift between the Houses must be healed.

Dumbledore might be wrong in many ways but... I trust the Sorting Hat!



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2006 :  13:25:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*scurries in*

*dusts and straightens*

*lays out darts and lines up ping-pong balls*

*sets fire*

*plushes pillows*

*sets out heaping tray of cakes and goodies*

*gives Snape-head ottoman a swift kick*

*scurries out*




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