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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2007 :  19:35:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have DH on CD and I've been listening to it in my car. I've listened to "The Prince's Tale" chapter at least twice and it's gotten creepier to me every time.

Snape's love for Lily was only of the obsessive kind. While not as obsessive as say Merope Gaunt, it was obsessive none the less. I haven't decided if he would've ever used a love potion on her (I am leaning towards no).

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  00:43:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you even think he wanted her to love him? Or did he just want to control her?

What does a boy who wants a girl to love him do?

Hangs out with her.
Tries to impress her with his looks, skills, possessions.
Tries to do things to make her happy.

As far as we know (big caveat) Snape did none of those things. Well, they did hang out together before school but once at Hogwarts he made and kept friends Lily detested. He certainly didn't try to befriend her family! He didn't try to improve him hygiene or try in in any way to impress or attract her. He didn't do anything specifically for her (until after her death).

So did he expect or want her to love him? I don't think so. It's a strange kind of one-sided attachment.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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she-dog
Addled

213 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  03:25:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After the second read I think Snape's love for Lily was pretty creepy, and not too romantic at all. First of all, if he was really in love with her, how could he still become a death eater? And secondly - it's been 20 years man, get a grip! Geez.

Would you like me to do it now? Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  10:37:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But he did hang out with her. He also tried to impress her (in his own way) with his abilities and powerful friends. Yes, she said she hated the DE's and dark arts, but JKR said he became a DE partly to impress Lily. That said, I don't think he really believed he had a chance with her once they got to Hogwarts. She was sorted into Gryffindor, was popular, and was later the object of James' interest.

Snape is an odd mixture of twisted halfways. He takes emotions and warps them-- when he allows them at all. How much of this is just his personality and how much of is due to his childhood is hard to say. Probably a little of both.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  10:51:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

JKR said he became a DE partly to impress Lily.


Huh? Where'd you read that, Siobhan? I never got that impression from the books.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  13:16:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it was the Bloomsbury webchat, but it could have been the webchat with the Today show. She did them all about the same time, so keeping them straight is difficult. I'll see if I can find a link.

*pop*

*pop*

Here's a quote. Not the one I was looking for, but interesting nonetheless. She seems to have contradicted herself from the Today show interview.
quote:
Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero
J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love
J.K. Rowling: and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!

And another.
quote:
Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

Here's the bit:
quote:
Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

Oh, all of the above are from the Bloomsbury webchat, a transcript of which is available at accio-quote.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  16:28:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.
You know, that's a pretty big IF. "If he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and had not been drawn to such loathesome people and acts." She might as well have said that Lily could have loved Snape romantically if he had not been ... well ... Snape. It was never going to happen.

quote:
... like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he he wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.
I interpret this to mean that Snape joined the Death Eaters to suit himself; he wanted it so badly that he completely disregarded Lily's true feelings. Again, this is just Snape being Snape. Lily gave him every opportunity to be better, but he never listened to her when she told him how much she hated the Dark Arts. He was so caught up in his own obsession that he didn't take her seriously (and he should have, if he loved her properly). The part about Lily being impressed was a rationalization of his own desires, not the real reason that he joined. Yes, it's a tragedy, but it's just another by-product of the creepy person that Snape was.

Despite all that, I still think that Snape loved Lily deeply (in his own strange way) and that he ultimately laid down his life for that love. But I also agree with this quote from JKR:

quote:
Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea.
Why? Because Snape was a creepy guy who loved in a very creepy way. It's an interesting twist that even creepy love can lead someone to do a heroic thing in the end, but that doesn't make it much less weird in my book. Redeeming and brave, yes, but still rather weird. *sigh*

Edited by - n/a on 08/16/2007 16:32:18
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  19:26:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He was so close to the dark arts that he didn't understand Lily's dislike-- or even how it could come between childhood friends. I also think he, like so many people in love, thought she would change her mind once she saw how important he was. Shallow, yes, but that is often a motivation-- even only a partial motivation for a lot of stupid things people do. How many teenagers wonder what they can do to make someone notice them or like them?

Snape was very short sighted-- he saw what he wanted but didn't consider what the outcome might be. Hypothetically, had he succeeded in winning Lily's heart, what would the reaction of all his DE cronies be?-- or Lord Voldemort, for that matter? He never considered that he was on conflicting paths.

I'm not saying that he was a great guy or even that he had "normal" relationships, but I'm not going to discount his feelings as at least partial motivations for his actions, either.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  21:07:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, but I think there's a big difference between saying "He thought she'd be impressed" and "He became a DE to impress her". He became a DE because he wanted to.

I'm very interested in the quote because it answers an old SINUS puzzle - DD said Voldemort's followers fell into 3 categories - the ambitious (like Lucius) who wanted part of the power, the weak (like Wormtail) who wanted protection and the cruel (like Greyback), who wanted new ways to hurt people. I always wondered which camp Snape fell into but apparently it's Wormtail's and not Lucius's.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2007 :  09:59:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

No, but I think there's a big difference between saying "He thought she'd be impressed" and "He became a DE to impress her".
Thus the partial in all my responses above.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2007 :  11:38:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

No, but I think there's a big difference between saying "He thought she'd be impressed" and "He became a DE to impress her". He became a DE because he wanted to.

I'm very interested in the quote because it answers an old SINUS puzzle - DD said Voldemort's followers fell into 3 categories - the ambitious (like Lucius) who wanted part of the power, the weak (like Wormtail) who wanted protection and the cruel (like Greyback), who wanted new ways to hurt people. I always wondered which camp Snape fell into but apparently it's Wormtail's and not Lucius's.
Yes, "insecure and vulnerable" - that's how I always pegged young Severus. He certainly wasn't a sadist and wasn't confident enough in himself to be looking for power. He wanted acceptance and unfortunately the people who offered it were Lucius Malfoy and his junior DEs.

Being a kid really does stink. Even if you have a great home life, you can still make stupid decisions. Just look at what a prat James was as a kid. And if you have a bad home life, you are very vulnerable. That isn't to say that kids from bad homes don't make good decisions, but there's a lot more risk when you don't have stable adults to guide you or keep you from heading down the wrong path.

Snape's dilemma in being caught between Lily and the Slytherins is very realistic. You see this with kids all the time in moving from elementary school to junior high. Sometimes the old friendships last, but just as often they fall away because one kid joins the band while the other joins the anime club and the two groups look down their noses at each other for whatever reason. The kids get sucked in by their respective peer groups and their friendship ends.

Had Snape been sorted into any house beside Slytherin, he wouldn't have become a DE. The prejudice he'd learned at home would have been looked down on instead of encouraged and (wanting to fit in) he would have let it go. Sure, he knew lots of curses, but that doesn't make you a dark wizard. In another house, his knowledge and intellect would have been channeled into entirely different paths. He might have wound up hoping to impress Lily by being a Auror instead of a DE. And he would have had a real shot with Lily.


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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2007 :  19:32:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan
I also think he, like so many people in love, thought she would change her mind once she saw how important he was. Shallow, yes, but that is often a motivation-- even only a partial motivation for a lot of stupid things people do. How many teenagers wonder what they can do to make someone notice them or like them?



Oh, my gosh! Reading that just made me realize a way Snape and James were alike. If Snape really did join the DE in part to impress Lily, he was doing the same thing (more or less) to get Lily's attention as James was. Snape saw James as a romantic rival, but since he couldn't compete with him in looks or Quidditch, Snape had to find his own little nitch in order to impress Lily. Snape was just too wrapped up in his delusions of granduer to realize how much Lily hated the dark arts.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2007 :  12:21:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lily did say that James was just as bad as he [Snape] was.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2007 :  16:29:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*Yawn*

Sorry, I fell asleep there for a bit.

*Magiks a fire in the grate* that's better!

So, who's up for a game of Snape!Darts?



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2007 :  23:55:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's (finally) starting to feel like Fall - cold and windy (by our standards, I needed a sweatshirt today). So..

Starts to put up festive decorations.. Oh heck, we missed Halloween! Well, we'll do a Harvest theme.

*Places some large colorful squashes around as footstool* *Replaces the Butterbeer on tap with Pumpkin Ale* *Orders up apple/pear tarts*

That was exhausting! Must be time for a rest.

Did anyone ever hear from Newguise?




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 11/07/2007 23:55:51
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  06:58:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*rubs eyes*

Whoa! Is that the Snape dartboard I see, all dusted off and ready to go? So have we decided it's all right to throw darts at a pathetic sad sack? (For the record, I have no problem with it!)

You know, the funny thing is that over the past three months, I seem to have blotted Deathly Hallows from my mind. Not that it's a bad book, but I prefer an open-ended adventure. It's so much more fun that way.

*swigs pumpkin ale*
*grabs a dart*
*takes carfeful aim*
*hits the buffet table*

Nice to see nothing's changed! Slushy may be a bit scarce for a while, though. She's joined the swim team and has to get up at 5:00 every morning for practice. Needless to say we've been dealing with a rather cranky house elf of late.

*adds fresh donuts and cider to the buffet*

I do miss Newguise! I guess we'll just have to consume more ale in her honor.

To Nuggy! *raises mug*
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  10:56:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To Newguise! We miss her!

But the party continues.

Hmm - are House Elves allowed to join swim teams? That seems like a conflict of interest to me.

I don't think I've completely blotted out DH - I mean, when JKR let loose the relevation that Dumbledore had been in love with whatisname I thought - oh, that makes sense given the bit where Alberforth describes how entirely they were wrapped up in each other - but you're right, the actual neat and tidy resolution of the whole series doesn't connect the way the other books did. I think I've definitely blotted out the last chapter of Book 7 - that should NEVER have been written! Albus Severus - puh!

Ooo - Pixie, you need more ale. I think that last one hit Mr Ben's portrait and he's not too thrilled about it. You got him in a delicate place.

*Thwap* Yes! Right between the beady eyes!

Hmm - you think maybe we should replace out Snape!dart board? I'm so fond of it. And really, as pathetic as he is now made out to be, he's still a nasty bit of work. We could put up a Dumbledore dartboard too, just to give equal time. You know, I really hate Michael Gambon's Dumbledore and so it won't give me much pain to see him revealed to be a manipulative dick in the Movie version of Book 7.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 11/08/2007 10:57:22
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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  12:39:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*rushes in*

Noooooooooooooooooooo! You can't take away the Snape dartboard!

*throws self in front of it in defense*

*realises this is probably not a good idea*

*decides to have some ale instead*

I like to think that Albus Severus is Harry's least favourite child. And if that makes me a bad person, so be it.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  14:31:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bee
I like to think that Albus Severus is Harry's least favourite child.


Oh Bee! That's hysterical and I never even thought about that. Yeah, he only got the name because Harry had a sneaking suspicion that Ginny was doing him wrong with the Floo Powder saleswizard.

We won't be removing the Snape dartboard, I promise. We'll just expand the game's possibilities for anyone who wants to throw sharp, pointy objects at old Albus instead. You can't have too many manipulative, heartless, untrustworthy wizards to throw things at, I always say.




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2008 :  19:54:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*flops into cushy chair*

Ah, I've missed the old clubhouse! Not much activity, but still nice to be surrounded by like minded people. Glad to see we're still bashing the Greasy One.

Are we also bashing dear Albus, too? Hmmm, I haven't decided (even after all these months) where I really stand on that man. I waffle back and forth.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2008 :  00:24:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know. I miss the days when we could be Dumbledore's Men and Women - not questioning his goodness or wisdom. I don't mind that he flirted with the dark side - he was young, he was in love. People make poor choices in life and if they're lucky they live to regret them. DD did plenty to make up for those early poor choices, including giving second chances to many others. But.. he treated Harry like a chess piece. His scheming and lying was all so.. immoral. I just hate that. I hate the whole "the end justifies the means" approach to life - it's the source of all evil.




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 01/23/2008 00:24:41
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2008 :  11:03:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, just look at Umbridge.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2008 :  01:11:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do I have to?


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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2008 :  05:42:16  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

I know. I miss the days when we could be Dumbledore's Men and Women - not questioning his goodness or wisdom. I don't mind that he flirted with the dark side - he was young, he was in love. People make poor choices in life and if they're lucky they live to regret them. DD did plenty to make up for those early poor choices, including giving second chances to many others. But.. he treated Harry like a chess piece. His scheming and lying was all so.. immoral. I just hate that. I hate the whole "the end justifies the means" approach to life - it's the source of all evil.






I agree with you--I don't like that reasoning either. But I took it that JKR was making the point that it's not the right way to do things. Dumbledore understood that his methods were not the ideal, and that's why he kept telling Harry that he (Harry) was the better man. I think it was in HBP that he told Harry that he (Dumbledore) was less valuable than Harry. It also seems to be the reason that Dumbledore didn't confide completely in anyone--even though he was remorseful about his choices when he was young, he still had that mentality that he couldn't trust anyone but himself with the master plan.

He told Harry large parts of his grand plan, and he told Snape some of it, and he told the Order members some of it. But he didn't tell anyone all of it. Didn't he tell Snape that he didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket, or something to that effect? It seems to go back to his youthful mistakes--he couldn't trust himself, so how in the world was he ever going to trust anyone else?

And what we get is a good example of what happens to a person who is manipulative and unable to trust completely. It also shows how a person's adult life can be so influenced by events and choices of youth. We see it with Dumbledore who lived the rest of his life full of regret for the devastation that happened to his family because of his rash and selfish choices when he was young, and we see it with Snape, being remorseful enough to live the rest of his life protecting and helping Harry, but never finding peace and happiness in any of his choices.

Voldemort made choices as a youth and as an adult and didn't have the emotional wherewithal to understand that he should have felt remorse, and that lead to the one thing he most wanted to avoid--his death.

The contrast and example of how we should be is Harry, who can love, as Dumbledore always told him. He makes mistakes, but he doesn't dwell on them so much that they cripple him emotionally, as Dumbledore and Snape did. Along the way, with Dumbledore's encouragement, Harry learns that he can trust and confide in his friends--first in Ron and Hermione, then in some of the others. Harry does follow some of Dumbledore's example in not telling some of them all the details, as when he tells Neville to kill the snake. But it's not so much a manipulation as a necessity of time. They really don't have the time for a long detailed conversation about why the snake has to be killed.

Neville, in going to the MOM with Harry in Order of the Phoenix, and in reviving the DA in Deathly Hallows shows the kind of loyalty that anyone would want if they were in Harry's situation. So there's another example of an ordinary person, not always confident or skilled, who rises above his personal limitations and acts heroically. (I love Neville whenever I think of him in DH.)

I think the other thing I took away from DH after finding that wonderful, good, quirky Dumbledore was so flawed, was that he was another view of what a real hero is. No one is perfect, yet people who have made mistakes or who have big flaws in their character still do things that make a positive difference in the lives of others, sometimes in the world. Dumbledore understood the need for people to have second chances because he himself had needed a second chance. Even though he was able to do that for others, he was never really able to forgive himself and that doubt or guilt must have played a huge part in the reason he wasn't more open and trusting about just what his grand plan was.

There's a certain sense of hope when I look at Dumbledore and realize that we don't have to be perfect or even make all the right choices in whatever we do--we just need to try.

Eeyore

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JKRisSuperior
Mediwizard

USA
694 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2008 :  11:43:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
:Wonders in:
:Throws a dart at Snape:

Hey guys, why has the board been so quiet the past few days? Are we using this as the new Teashop?

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the death of Heath Ledger. I thought that would be a big topic here.
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  14:08:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dumbledore, what an interesting subject! I'll admit I'm still a bit dissatisfied about how his character played out in the last book. Not because of what he did when he was young; it was a very interesting addition to his character that he wasn't so perfect after all and he needed a second chance too. But what did our champion of second chances do with his own? Sure, he sequestered himself away at Hogwarts, doing good and such while protecting the world from his power-hungry side. But he still manipulated people cruelly, right up until he died. And he never opened up to anyone about his plans. It's very generous to attribute his secrecy to his guilt, but my impression was that he still believed he knew better than anyone and that he thought he should be "boss." He still liked the power of being smartest and pulling all the strings, and pull them he did.

What irkled me the most is that Dumbledore's blatant manipulation of people in his later years is never really condemned in the book. I think what he did to Harry, and to Snape as well, was wrong. I don't care if it was in the context of war: It was wrong, period, to manipulate people like that. But where is the condemnation? Dumbledore still seems to be held up as the all-powerful, all-wise white hat who still has to tell Harry everything in the end (King's Cross). Isn't it funny that the only time he was truly honest was after he was dead, or as I choose to interpret it, when he was a figment of Harry's subconscious, telling Harry what he already knew? Perhaps a few lines do lip service to the fact that Harry was the better man, yet the main thrust of the plot supports what Dumbledore did, grand plan included, and implies that it was heroic and right.

Now, I do love Dumbledore's character and all his backstory. However, my final opinion of him as a person is based far more on his actions leading up to his death than his mistakes as a young man. He wasn't reformed, not really. He certinaly wasn't any "epitome of goodness," except perhaps in Harry's naive eleven-year-old eyes. He did do some good, obviously ... but it was still at great cost through his ever-Machiavellian means. That cost, I think, was not properly recognized in the books, and is what dissatisfied me the most where Dumlbedore is concerned. I did not mind the man he actually was, but don't always agree with the man he was held up to be by the author.

quote:
There's a certain sense of hope when I look at Dumbledore and realize that we don't have to be perfect or even make all the right choices in whatever we do--we just need to try.


Not sure I agree with that. As Yoda told Luke when Luke said he would try: "Do or do not. There is no 'try.'" Trying is only a start ... it's not an objective or end point. It's what you actually do with your efforts that really counts.

Edited by - n/a on 01/26/2008 14:48:40
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2008 :  11:22:33  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I agree almost completely with you, Pesky. I didn't mind DD's early errors, which, as you point out, showed that he needed a second chance, too. It was how Rowling portrayed his older self that really bothered me and is one of the two or three main reasons that I didn't like DH.

Rowling said that DD was the "epitome of good" but we just don't see that in the end. It is one of the main things that call in question the morality of the story that Rowling presented. Yes, Harry is shown to be the better man, but he should not have had so much to forgive if DD had truly been the "good" man Rowling tells us he was. It is another case of Rowling saying one thing, and then writing another in her descriptions of the characters' actions.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 01/28/2008 :  23:51:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I too agree wholeheartedly, Pixie. In the essay I wrote for Scribbulus, I said, "Dumbledore crossed the line from being a stoic leader to a calculating manipulator because he never gave his followers all of the information they needed to make a free choice. He gave them only enough to maneuver them into doing what he wanted them to do."

This is what I can't get past. I can forgive DD for asking terrible sacrifices of Snape. I can forgive him for plotting Harry's death. Sometimes, good people have to do awful things in war. But what I have a very hard time forgiving is the way that he used his loyal followers. It is one thing to ask or even to order someone to perform a horrible task. It is another to manipulate them into doing it by playing on their emotions. And I fully agree that DD thought he knew best. Honestly, I don't think he ever really changed at all when it came to this fundamental aspect of his character. To quote again from my essay:

"Dumbledore’s longing for power was always benevolent. Even while plotting with Grindelwald to gain dominion over Muggles, he convinced himself that he was doing it for the Muggles’ own good. We can see this same paternalistic behavior throughout the books. Dumbledore believed that he knew what was best for everyone, whether it be using Snape’s guilt and grief to turn him to the Light side or lying to Harry to protect him from knowledge of his fate.

But he had no right to such condescension; no right to manipulate the lives of others, no matter how noble his purpose. Worst of all, Dumbledore used love as his tool. He knew, you see, that nothing binds the soul more surely than love and so he used Snape’s love for Lily and Harry’s abiding love for virtually everyone to persuade them to do his bidding.

Harry and Snape never stood a chance against the master gamesman. He manipulated them both effortlessly and so completely that even when his machinations were revealed they still obeyed. That’s because he used their own natures to ensnare them. He deceived them in the particulars, but he led them where they were willing to go. He laid out an enticing road – the only one in sight – and beckoned them to follow him down it. They couldn’t see the end. He kept that hidden until they had gone far enough that he knew they wouldn’t turn back. Then he stepped aside and pointed the way to the cliff he expected them to jump off.

One might call this a ruthless faith in both Snape and Harry’s better natures. It is horrifying and compelling at the same time. Because Dumbledore was right; there was no other path to take. Still, one can't help wondering if he couldn’t have spared a little more honesty and respect for the two people of whom he asked the ultimate sacrifice."



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Posted - 01/29/2008 :  16:35:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, I forgot to throw darts at Snape!

*lobs three darts in quick succession*

*plonk plonk plonk*

*somewhere a house elf yelps*

Whoops ... Sorry, Slushy!

Well, to bring the old greasebag back into this, I think it's interesting how Dumbledore has effictively taken over Snape's former position as the most interesting and complex character in the series. Before DH, we all loved and respected Dumlbedore, for the most part unquestioningly. But face it, he was rather boring and one-dimensional, being all-good and all-knowing all the time. After DH, he's a much more brilliant character, even if he's not such a great person. In that regard I'm quite pleased and impressed.

Unfortunatley, that's where the refreshing change ends. Despite all his morally questionable scheming and ruthless manipulation, We still get Dumbledore presented as the ever-wise mentor who has to manage everything behind Harry's back and explain it all later. (Not even a hint that his scheme was an itsy bit wrong.) I had truly hoped that DH would abandon that stale old formula, but instead, it served up another helping of the same cold dish. It even had to bring Dumbledore back from the dead to do it. *groan*

Hmmm ... There's another reason why PoA was my favorite book: No "Dumbledore Explains it All" scene at the end.

Then there's poor Snape. (Not really. ) Reduced from a fascinating, mysterious character to a sadly manipulated love-puppy. Yeah, he was brave, but as for the rest of him ... *yech* and *yawn*. I liked him a lot better when I thought his underhanded nastiness hinted at some sort of backbone or inner guiding principle, albeit a foul one. But instead he just turned out to be an insecure, nasty, unwashed sop who was badly used. In that aspect, I was neither pleased nor impressed. At least the flaws in his character were thoroughly recognized in the books, and consequence was paid. Although he was granted some degree of heroism, he was never whitewashed, at least not in canon. Thank heaven for that, at least.

*lobs another dart*

*actually hits Snape on the ear*

That was for trying to poison Neville's pet, you slimeball!

Edited by - n/a on 01/29/2008 16:39:50
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Theowyn
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Posted - 02/04/2008 :  12:54:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, I don't know about Snape not being whitewashed in canon. Harry's reassurance to little Albus Severus, that his namesake was the bravest man he ever knew is surely worthy of the sappiest fanfic. Not because it isn't true - it is - but rather because we never see Harry's feelings for Snape shift from utter loathing to the kind of respect it takes to name your child after someone. I would have gladly forfeited a page or two of the camping trip to get some insight into Harry's thoughts after the final battle.

I, too, was initially disappointed with Lily being Snape's raison d'etre. I argued against it for years because it is soooo cliche. But as soon as we found out that Lily had been a whiz at Potions in HBP, the writing was on the wall, so I'd gotten used to the idea by the time DH came out and it didn't bug me during the book.

What did bug me - a LOT - was the reason DD gave to Snape when he asked Snape to kill him. I expected something along the lines of, "You need to save Draco..." or "You need to convince Voldemort that you are his most trusted servant..." These would have been important goals worthy of Snape's sacrifice. But for DD to ask Snape to throw his life away simply to provide DD with an easier death... talk about cowardly and selfish. I wanted to slap DD for that.

I was also disappointed that JKR fell back on wise-old-mentor!DD, right down to dead!DD explains all. Sheesh! It would have been much more refreshing to see Harry and his friends work things out for themselves after the battle - the new generation coming into its own. It would have also given them the chance to discuss DD and Snape and their respective faults and virtues. That would have been the perfect opportunity to address DD's moral mistakes.

Lest I leave the impression that I hated the whole book, let me say that DH wasn't all bad. What I found truly impressive was that DD took over Snape's place as the most morally suspect character - a genuine feat on JKR's part. Hmm... wonder if that goes hand in hand with complexity. For all his nastiness, Snape really was the better man. He might have been mean and spiteful, but he didn't lie and use people, nor did he get them killed with his scheming.


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Edited by - Theowyn on 02/05/2008 12:32:40
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