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Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  10:36:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How old was he when he did that, exactly? If we say he was the same age as James & Lily, he was 21. A baby. Dumbledore wasn't exactly as white as snow at that age either, was he. For the greater good and all that?

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  11:04:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As old as James and Lily were when they died - probably early 20s. When he tormented the young kids and encouraged destructive rivalries? Probably early 30s. How old does someone have to be before they're supposed to be able to act like an adult, anyway?

You know, comparing Dumbledore to Snape as if one was just as bad as the other substantially cuts down on ammunition for the argument that Snape was ever at all good. If Snape exchanged one powerful, evil master for another one because the first one killed his "girl", he's no better than a mercenary - albeit a mercenary with a mono-mania named Lily.

I don't think Dumbledore was all good, he wasn't. He lived heartlessly - for all his warmth, he essentially thought of people as chess pawns, disposible when their time came for the good of the game. I think that's why he recognized the real value in Harry's character - that he could love and give, even to those he didn't like or value. Those are the exact qualities Snape most detested. He was repelled by all that was good in Harry - makes you wonder what he really "loved" in Lily, as apparently Harry got his fairness, his compassion and his ability to selflessly sacrifice from his mother.

While we're at it - to Lily! She deserved a lot better than she got.


Twenty-two bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Twenty-two bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Twenty-one bottles of butterbeer on the wall!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 07/24/2007 11:10:14
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  12:03:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC
I don't think Dumbledore was all good, he wasn't. He lived heartlessly - for all his warmth, he essentially thought of people as chess pawns, disposible when their time came for the good of the game. I think that's why he recognized the real value in Harry's character - that he could love and give, even to those he didn't like or value. Those are the exact qualities Snape most detested. He was repelled by all that was good in Harry - makes you wonder what he really "loved" in Lily, as apparently Harry got his fairness, his compassion and his ability to selflessly sacrifice from his mother.
Guys, I think you've had too much butterbeer. Snape detested Harry because he was James's son, an obvious reminder that James had had Lily, the girl Snape loved. Harry was also a constant reminder of Lily's death and Snape's own guilt. It's no wonder Snape hated and resented Harry and he certainly doesn't have to have been evil incarnate to have done so. Just human.

As to his contempt for Harry's emotions: love, sympathy, etc., I suspect it's because his own love has got the better of him. We see exactly this same dynamic in HBP when he calls Tonks's Patronus "weak" because it represents the one she loves. Snape's does too. And no he doesn't despise his own ability to love because he's evil, he lashes out at that emotion because it hurts. We see just how much pain he is in at the end of HBP: "as much pain as the dog trapped in the burning building".

You keep professing not to hate Snape and yet you are doing everything to convince yourselves of just how much he should be hated. Please, don't keep huddling here doing this. Please, can't you let go of the hate? No one's saying you should like the guy. No one's denying the horrible things he's done. But obviously JKR thinks he has redeemed himself. Heck, Harry named his son after the guy and called him the bravest person he'd ever known. Can't we all just accept JKR and Harry's judgement and move on? Please. I just don't understand how hating someone this much can be fun.

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s.i.n.e. qua non

"Always"
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Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  12:18:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, originally this wasn't the Snape hate group, it was just a group that didn't like Snape, which is fair enough, cos he's not nice. Something seems to have changed ...

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  12:28:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC
I don't think Dumbledore was all good, he wasn't. He lived heartlessly - for all his warmth, he essentially thought of people as chess pawns, disposible when their time came for the good of the game. I think that's why he recognized the real value in Harry's character - that he could love and give, even to those he didn't like or value. Those are the exact qualities Snape most detested. He was repelled by all that was good in Harry - makes you wonder what he really "loved" in Lily, as apparently Harry got his fairness, his compassion and his ability to selflessly sacrifice from his mother.
Guys, I think you've had too much butterbeer. Snape was a git, but he wasn't evil. He detested Harry because he was James's son, an obvious reminder that James had had Lily, the girl Snape loved. Not to mention a constant reminder of Lily's death and Snape's own guilt. He didn't detest Harry's ability to love.

You keep professing not to hate Snape and yet you are doing everything to convince yourselves of just how much he should be hated. Please, can't you let it go? No one's saying you should like the guy. No one's denying the horrible things he's done. But obviously JKR thinks he has redeemed himself. Heck, Harry named his son after the guy and called him the bravest person he'd ever known. Can't we all just accept JKR and Harry's judgement and move on? Please? I just don't understand how hating someone this much can be fun.

Order of the Bookmark

s.i.n.e. qua non

"Always"

Edited by - Theowyn on 07/24/2007 13:15:50
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  13:50:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We don't think Snape is evil but we don't like him and we think Snape-lurve is absurd. That hasn't changed! I think we've already said - DH showed he was brave and was in league with Dumbledore. That doesn't make him a nice person or a good person. He was still a git. that's our stance and we're sticking to it!

Speaking of can't you let it go - umm.. Theo? You're the one on the SINUS thread!!! If you don't like the fact that we don't like Snape.. you can always stick to SINE! We welcome people who want to drop by for a beer but - its our club and we can dislike Snape as much as we want here!!!

By the way, you've conveniently forgotten how badly Snape treated Harry during Occlumency lessons - he did detest and despise Harry's easily accessed emotions, when in fact that was one of Harry's strongest powers. And if you re-read the sections in Snape's memories you will see that even with Dumbledore, Snape sneered at Harry's abilities, those same abilities that the other teachers praised.

I don't hate Snape any more than I hate Mundungus - they both had their problems - but it's just kind of sickening how much people LOVE him when he was infinitely unloveable. And that's why we're here.

To Harry!


Twenty-one bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Twenty-one bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Twenty bottles of butterbeer on the wall!





And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 07/24/2007 13:51:53
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Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  13:56:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup, he's a git, and I don't think anyone is denying that, but if you don't feel sorry for him at least a little bit, then perhaps you're a teeeensy bit hard-hearted.

I can't stand Mundungus, by the way. His cowardice got Moody killed.

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  13:58:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

I don't think Dumbledore was all good, he wasn't. He lived heartlessly - for all his warmth, he essentially thought of people as chess pawns, disposible when their time came for the good of the game.
No, Dumbledore was not 100% good, but he did actually care for Harry. He just knew that Voldemort had to go and how. He also guessed that Harry would sacrifice himself to save others.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  14:24:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Martje, actually the thing that bothers me most is I am soft-hearted, but my sympathies are more for the children, not for the adults. Adults have to take care of themselves and they should be responsible for remediating their own mistakes. Neville was 11 years old, orphaned, raised in a family that brow-beat him, a social outcast and Snape mercilessly abused him. SNAPE was responsible for his being an orphan! He abused this little boy who needed help! Ditto Harry. Ditto Hermione, a smart girl in a foreign society where she was mocked for her background. They were young kids - his students. He was a teacher and he abused his position and made their lives more difficult. I cannot understand how people feel all the love and compassion for Snape, a grown man who made many bad choices and none for his students, who were defenceless and innocent of wrong-doing.

I do think Dumbledore cared about Harry but I also think Alberforth was right - DD was so concerned about accomplishing his goals that he didn't really count the human damage involved.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 07/24/2007 14:26:57
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  14:43:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neville was orphaned because the Lestranges tortured his parents in the hopes of information on Voldemort's whereabouts. Nevilles' Dad was an auror and a member of the Order. He could have supplied them with information. How is this Snape's fault?

I have no problem blaming Snape for his actions and I never did. Neither do I have a problem seeing it as a complete waste that anyone should throw away opportunities to do the right thing. Learning things the hard way sucks, especially for the innocents caught in the path. And Snape didn't quite get it till the end. He was still doing the right thing only because of his love for one woman, rather than for the love of mankind.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
Member of the HPEW & HPCS Appreciation Society
s.i.n.e. qua non
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  16:58:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Neville was orphaned because the Lestranges tortured his parents in the hopes of information on Voldemort's whereabouts. Nevilles' Dad was an auror and a member of the Order. He could have supplied them with information. How is this Snape's fault?
Because Snape listened at keyholes and overheard a prophecy that named a boy born at the end of July as the one who could defeat the Dark Lord. Neville was born at the end of July, and it's possible that the info Snape provided to Voldemort (and whomever else Voldemort shared it with) led to the Lestranges torturing Neville's parents into insanity. We don't know if it's true, and Snape might not have known if it's true, but it's a definite possibility.

The way Snape acted toward Neville was unconscionable, given this possibility. Some people deal with guilt by making amends to those they've hurt. Snape dealt with his guilt by trying to make everyone else as miserable as himself. Even Harry -- the son of the only one he ever loved -- received no compassion, not one iota. Snape did nothing for Harry but try to keep him alive, and miserably so. Not even for the sake of Lily's memory could he try to make Harry's life better. So sad.

quote:
He was still doing the right thing only because of his love for one woman, rather than for the love of mankind.
That's far better than nothing, and he did do some very brave and valuable things to atone for his sins against her. But it still left him sadly lacking as a human being. That's why we have to recognize what an awful person Snape was. His inability to care for anyone but Lily led him into a horrible, tragic life, and a gruesome death. That's a lesson to everyone.

I don't hate Snape. I never have. I've forgiven him for his terrible life (to what extent that I have that right), and I recognize the courage he showed when working for Dumbledore. But it would do injustice to his character forget his many deep flaws, and to not recognize how his failings as a human being led him to his doom.

There is no message in these books that says you can be a horrible, nasty sadist to children and adults alike, care for only one person ever, and live happily ever after. You can be forgiven and go on to a better place, as Snape eventually was/did, but true happiness can only be achieved through unselfish love and generosity of spirit to all.

Harry was generous and forgiving, and like Lily eventually saw the best in others. If he wasn't, never could have named his son Albus Severus in honor of the latter's devotion to his mother. His ability to forgive and move on has enabled him to have the happy, fulfilling life that Snape never could. He may honor Snape's courage, but would he encourage his own children to behave like Snape did in everyday life? Never. He has learned, with Snape's help, that anger and hatred only lead to misery, and he wants his children to be happy. If that's Snape's legacy, then he's served his purpose well.

To Harry!

Twenty bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Twenty bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Nineteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!



Edited by - n/a on 07/24/2007 17:07:56
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Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  17:59:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Snape was a horrible git, but a brave horrible git, in contrast to Wormtail, who was just a horrible git (how the heck did he get into Gryffindor? Could someone ask Jo that question during the online chat? I'll be on a plane).

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  18:24:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We could start a new club for Wormtail.

Wormtail is a Measley, Pathetic Yellowbelly.

WIMPY

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  19:50:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And Umbridge is a Power-Hungry, Evil, Repulsive Sadist!

UP-HERS

But the trouble is one can dislike Wormtail or Umbridge in any thread - most people recognize their rather extreme shotcomings! SINUS is a much-needed refuge from the overwhelming number of people who are so overcome with Snape-love that they can't recognize his shortcomings. We are an oasis of sanity and fun.

To Fun!

Nineteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Nineteen bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Eighteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  19:51:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know Martje - regarding Wormtail.. I have SO wondered that!
Perhaps, as Dumbledore says, they sort into Houses at too young an age - though what Hogwarts House would fit a lazy, cowardly, dependant and dim student, I cannot say.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 07/24/2007 19:54:05
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  23:23:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let's not forget

Bellatrix is a Twisted, Cold-blooded Harpy

BITCH

(Hey, that's what Molly called her!)

To Molly!

Eighteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Eithteen bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Seventeen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!

Edited by - n/a on 07/24/2007 23:26:29
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  23:48:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ooo - here's to great acronyms! I'd join BITCH in a second.

TGA! (To Great Acronyms!)


Seventeen bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Seventeen bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Sixteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  00:14:34  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Gosh this thread is fun. Hating - well, disliking - Snape is also fun. It riles up the Snapefen, you see!

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
Professor Stephen Hawking
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  00:48:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Myf! Have a bottle while you're here!

Yes.. precisely. Or as precise as I can be after the number of butterbeers I've polished off today.

I went out with some co-workers after work and all I could think was - I wish the SINUS folks were here! My co-workers are fun people but no ordinary bar can compete with our club-room.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  14:18:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's official. SINUS has been vindicated by none other than JK Rowling herself.

In her own words, post DH, Jo confirms that Snape is a spiteful bully. She gasped at the idea that he was a hero, and said she didn't see him as a hero at all. He only protected Harry because he loved Lily. It it hadn't been for her, he "wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to the boy."

So we're not hate-filled delusionals who missed some great message JKR was sending. (Of course, we knew that!) We actually understood the character! Go us!

To JK Rowling!

*hoists butterbeer with firewhisky chaser*

Seventeen bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Seventeen bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Sixteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!







Edited by - n/a on 07/26/2007 14:19:50
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Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  14:29:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As far as I can see, it looks like the SINE lot understood him too ...

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  14:56:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Of course, the two were never mutually exclusive! We've insisted that all along.

It's just good to have a little confirmation from JKR that Snape is a really spiteful bully who shouldn't be revered as a hero, especially after being told so rudely a few days ago that we should get over it and move on because her judgment had already spoken. So please forgive me for a little mention of her true feelings. If it belongs anywhere, it's on this thread.

Help yourself to a butterbeer, there are plenty for all!


Edited by - n/a on 07/26/2007 17:10:59
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  16:38:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now that I've recovered from the umpteen bottles I hoisted before... I'll certainly drink to that!

To JK Rowling!

Sixteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall.
Sixteen bottles of beer!
Take one down, pass it around

Fifteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!


I'm kind of blasť right now about participating in the DH discussions - maybe I need more time. The build up was so exciting - I'm just not putting a lot of energy into the aftermath. Part of it is I didn't like the book as well as most people so it's hard to get really enthusiastic about it.

Hmm - but this is such a nice club-room, maybe I'll just snooze here for a while. Get my energy back..zzzzz..


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  17:13:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
AMC, I didn't much like DH right after I'd finished it either, but a few days's reflection has done wonders. I've re-read quite a few chapters already, and I think I'll start the whole book from the beginning this weekend. I'm still dreading the neverending campout, though. It's as if there is a big blank spot in my head from the wedding up until the trio arrives back at Hosgmeade and meets Aberforth. Hope I like that part better the second time!

Edited by - n/a on 07/26/2007 17:15:19
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Starling
Confunded

United Kingdom
701 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  17:37:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, the neverending campout worked, in the sense that Jo managed to make us just as annoyed and foggy-brained as the campouters while reading it.

I wuv multicoloured werewolf puppies.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  18:31:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

It's official. SINUS has been vindicated by none other than JK Rowling herself.

In her own words, post DH, Jo confirms that Snape is a spiteful bully. She gasped at the idea that he was a hero, and said she didn't see him as a hero at all. He only protected Harry because he loved Lily. It it hadn't been for her, he "wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to the boy."

So we're not hate-filled delusionals who missed some great message JKR was sending. (Of course, we knew that!) We actually understood the character! Go us!



For one brief moment there though, I thought she had actually found our little thread here. I think she'd get a kick out the clubhouse, and she's more than welcome to join in the fun.

I must admit, I felt a little sorry for Snape while reading The Prince's Tale chapter. Until I got to the part where he and Lily were talking in the hallway and she basically told him 'it's me or your dark arts" and he choose his dark arts. Git!

Fifteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!
Fifteen bottles of beer!!!!!
Take on down, pass it around

Fourteen bottles of butterbeer on the WALL!!!!!

Proud member of SINUS

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  23:47:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
True about the camp-out - I remember it about as clearly as I remember the camping we did when I was a child. In both cases there was a certain amount of enjoyment and a certain amount of "get this over with".

Love your energy, dobbygirl. By the way - were you devastated when Dobby died? He was such a hero at the end.

Have we drunk a toast to Dobby yet? If not, we should - if we have well - one more can't hurt.

To Dobby!



Fourteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!
Fourteen bottles of beer!
Take on down, pass it around

Thirteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  23:54:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh yes, To Dobby!

And to not taking things too seriously! (The world seems to be plagued with an overabundance of seriousness lately.) *pulls silly face*

To Laughter!

Thirteen bottles of butterbeer on the wall!
Thirteen bottles of beer!
Take on down, pass it around

Twelve bottles of butterbeer on the wall!


Keep drinking girls! Before long we'll be breaking out the good stuff!
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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  07:58:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC
Love your energy, dobbygirl. By the way - were you devastated when Dobby died? He was such a hero at the end.



Yes, his was the first (but not the last) death that I cried at. It was so sad, but I accepted it because he died doing what he dreamed of: saving Harry Potter. He wouldn't have wanted his death any other way. *sniff*

Proud member of SINUS

Order of the Bookmark
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  09:55:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
See, I think Hedwig's sudden death hit me so hard and shocked me so that I was kind of numb for the others. I'm sure I'll cry more in the second read-through - but for now I've lent my copy out!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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