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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  21:46:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah - such a nice thought.

I'll add a bottle of firewhiskey (for medicinal purposes, of course), a package of crumpets, some Droobles chewing gum (useful when you're thinking things over), a few Green and Gold striped floor Pillows and a dozen pairs of fuzzy slippers. I'm also putting in a small bottle of oily-hair shampoo... just as a little joke!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2006 :  04:57:25  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Wait, are we trying to make nice with our theological foes?
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2006 :  11:57:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sure why not - we can disagree and still get along.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2006 :  15:46:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

I don't know if that is his biggest mistake, but Dumbledore surely has to have second-guessed his lack of action all those years ago. Especially when he went searching into Riddle's past and found out that none of his schoolmates would talk about him and what he did at school because they were too afraid. You have to wonder what was going on at Hogwarts right under all their noses (well, beyond the opening of the CoS, among other things).

Dumbledore pretty much failed where Riddle was concerned, and he had to regret that keenly. Perhaps that regret was part of the reason he was so determined to give Snape a second chance. In doing so, he was also giving himself a second chance to turn another angry, misguided young man upon the right path. He certainly kept Snape close after he took him back under his wing.



Pixie, I agree entirely on Dumbledore's "lack of action" - it's what bugs us most about him, he doesn't act when we think he should. And perhaps sometimes even he feels he waited too long - Riddle was certainly one of those cases. And Dumbledore does blame himself, I seem to remember, for having taken a dislike to Tom Riddle when he met him. Perhaps he felt if he had treated Tom Riddle with more compassion, Lord Voldemort would not have ended up as he did. Personally, I doubt it.. I think I need to go re-read DD's passages on Riddle.

But do you really think DD kept Snape close? And do you think Snape was ever under DD's wing as a student? Snape came to DD to tell a tale of repentance shortly before (I think) Voldemort's downfall. According to him, Voldemort sent him there. DD kept Snape on and let him join the Order but... kept him close? Does DD keep anyone close?

It's funny, I was watching GoF last night and there were several scenes which seemed to be group "crisis" meetings that I remember from the books as involving fewer people. I don't think Dumbledore managed by consensus.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2006 :  20:23:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Perhaps he felt if he had treated Tom Riddle with more compassion, Lord Voldemort would not have ended up as he did. Personally, I doubt it.. I think I need to go re-read DD's passages on Riddle.


I doubt it would've made a difference as to how Tom Riddle turned out. It may have made a difference in how Tom viewed DD. If DD had been more compassionate, Tom might have viewed him as weak and with less suspicion than he did. I wonder if Tom would've been so careful when he arrived at Hogwarts. Who knows, maybed To Riddle could've been kicked out before he was properly trained.

quote:
Does DD keep anyone close?


No one that we've met. He may perhaps be very close to his brother.

Lookie what I found! I unmarked life-sized poster of the slimey one. I'll add it to the box for our SINE friends. I'll also add a few boxes of Fred and George's patented daydreams....so they can dream of a place where they're right about the slimey one.

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2006 :  11:36:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In case you is still wondering, I is indeed a girl! Just wanted to clear that up!

*goes about dusting*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2006 :  11:54:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oooh! We have ourselves a talkative House Elf! And she dusts! Can't get lucker than that.

DG, I don't disagree with you about Tom Riddle, I'm trying to understand Dumbledore's perspective.

Dumbledore takes responsiblity very seriously and he obviously cares about giving people second chances - or even third chances. He kept on Hagrid after he was disgraced, he brought Lupin the werewolf in to teach DADA, he arranged for Sirius to escape the dementors, he vouched for Snape, he rescued Dolores Umbridge(why oh why?)... in each case he gave an outcast or suspected criminal safe harbor. I suspect his reason for doing so in each case wasn't his certainty that they were innocent but his certainty that they were redeemable. I think DD believes there is good in everyone but they have to make the right choices to "be" good. But you can't make those choices if you're unwelcome everywhere but "bad" society.

So given Dumbledore's outlook, I think he would regret not reaching out to Tom Riddle more. I agree with you, I think Riddle would never have changed regardless but Dumbledore, being wiser and more compassionate than we, might still regret not having tried.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2006 :  11:56:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slushy, do you know where to get really good currant scones? There's a tea-shop down the way but I'd hate to leave my cushy chair.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2006 :  13:14:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*speeds in*

*places tray of tea and currant scones next to cushy chair*

I is not meaning to talk too much, madam. I is a good house elf. I is just wanting to keep my masters happy. I is happy that there is no bad dark wizards allowed here.

*stokes fire*

*clears empty cups*

*speeds out*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2006 :  19:05:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

So given Dumbledore's outlook, I think he would regret not reaching out to Tom Riddle more. I agree with you, I think Riddle would never have changed regardless but Dumbledore, being wiser and more compassionate than we, might still regret not having tried.


Ah, okay now I understand.

*plops down in poofy armchair by fire*

I think I'll just stay here awhile and think.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2006 :  19:08:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Aaah. Thank you Slushy, you are a treasure.

Don't think too much Dobbygirl - it causes wrinkles you know. Here, have a scone. Life is good.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2006 :  20:19:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC
But do you really think DD kept Snape close? And do you think Snape was ever under DD's wing as a student? Snape came to DD to tell a tale of repentance shortly before (I think) Voldemort's downfall. According to him, Voldemort sent him there. DD kept Snape on and let him join the Order but... kept him close? Does DD keep anyone close?



Not quite close enough, apparently. But I do think DD kept Snape a lot closer after he supposedly turned spy for the Order. He took him on as a teacher at Hogwarts and even made him head of Slytherin House. After Vodlemort's return, he evidently treated Snape as a trusted advisor and his resident expert on Dark Curses. Yes, I'd say he kept Snape fairly close.




Goody! Looks like the SINE care package is coming along nicely.

I'll just add this oaken bucket of Hagrid's; they might need it in case any SINUS members accidentally wander over there with our weak stomachs. (Just kidding!) Oh, and an honorary pirate because everybody needs a handsome swashbuckler or two around to liven things up, even our compassionate friends. And finally, an assortment of fine teas, crumpets, and flavored syrups, for putting up with us!

There! I'll just seal it up and Slushy can take it over when she gets the chance.
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Slushy
Giddy

37 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  07:29:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*collects package*
*balances it on head, totters, almost drops it because it is three times as big as a house elf*

*POP*

Proud House-elf of S.I.N.U.S.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  11:12:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, Slushy - next time we'll have to remember to charm our packages to make them temporarily smaller.

Well trust is key - but trusting someone doesn't necessarily mean letting them get close to you. I think DD tended not to share information, even with those he trusted.. interestingly enough, in this he resembles both Harry and Voldemort. But this could simply be a function of needing some mystery in the stories - most dramatic plots would be completely ruined if the key characters were all open, honest and fully communicative!

But keeping someone close also implies you generally have some idea what they're up to.. and I'm pretty sure DD didn't, in Snape's case.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  20:28:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*wanders in, plops down in an armchair by the fire*

It would be more fair to say Dumbledore thought he knew what Snape was up to, whether or not he really did. DD also gave Snape far more credit than he deserved for reigning in Draco. Do you think there was any way Dumbledore would have allowed Death Eaters into the castle if he had a clue Draco could be successful? Or tolerated the near-deaths of Ron and Katie Bell as a result of Draco's schemes, if he realized that Snape couldn't control him? That was the second time (at least) that Snape had failed him in an assignment ... the first being when he failed to teach Harry occlumency. As ineffectual as Snape had been in both those situations, you have to wonder why Dumbledore trusted him with any task at all, when he couldn't seem to get the job done.

As has been said before, Dumbledore's lack of action is very frustrating at times. Especially when Ron and Katie nearly died, and Dumbledore knew Draco was behind the attacks, yet he didn't do anything himself! To protect Draco and to nurse his own faith in Snape, he put his other students and teachers at real risk. Some may call that compassion for Draco and Snape, but to me it borders on poor judgment and disrespect for all the other people he is responsible for. "Trusting to the point of recklessness" hits the nail on the head.

Now, I adore Dumbledore and think he is one of the finest, most honorable characters in the books. But that does not make him infallible. In fact, I think it's essential to the story that Dumbledore be wrong about a few things, so that Harry can emerge as the real hero. The true mentor's success is achieved when his apprentice exceeds him, and Dumbledore was ready for that to happen with Harry ... he said as much in his own words. It's high time, too. For five books (and part of the sixth) we as readers were lulled into the pattern of "Dumbledore is always right and Harry is always wrong." However, that pattern clearly began to break in HBP. In HBP Harry hit the fulcrum point where his judgment began to tip for the better ... and by the end of the book he was more capable than Dumbledore to carry on the fight.

That's one of the reasons I don't like the "Grand Plan." I don't want Harry to need to be helped that way. I want Harry to be right. And while Harry can still be inspired and strenghtened by Dumbledore's spirit and example, I want him to be better than Dumbledore in certain ways. I want him to defeat Voldemort on his own terms, so that he can become the true hero of the story.

Lurkers note that none of this requires Snape to end up "evil." To think that the SINUS philosophy requires Snape to be evil is completely missing the mark. I think he still might do something worthwhile, but that simply hasn't happened yet.

AMC, you mentioned also liking The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde. Dorian is the perfect example of a character who did some very awful things, but was not truly evil at heart. He tried to do something honorable before the end, but did not fully succeed at redeeming himself. The book was so much better and more poinant precisely because of that: it expressed the pain of potential lost, the counterpoint of self-love and self-loathing, the realization only too late that destroying the demon meant also destroying the self he had become. That is true art! That is what Snape can be if only he doesn't turn into a formula villain-turned-good.

Oh well, I've prattled on long enough ... time for a toddy and some darts. Thank you, Slushy! *sighs with contentment*

Edited by - n/a on 06/23/2006 20:33:45
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  22:22:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*Sniff* You're just a credit to S.I.N.U.S., Pixie, that's what you are. Have another.

I am in complete agreement with you - I adore Dumbledore and I want him to be "right" only in that Harry is "Dumbledore's Man" and a don't want him following in the footsteps of a deluded old fool. And on the other hand I do not think this series is "Harry Potter's Teachers and Their Really Good Ideas". It's Harry's series, he is the Hero and he must find his own way. Dumbledore is the ultimate good guy but he does make mistakes and some of them could (and may have) cost dearly. I wonder exactly what role he played in the whole Lily and James in hiding fiasco. Certainly if Trelawny knew that Snape had overheard the prophecy, Dumbldore must have known.. and apparently he didn't "do anything" to prevent what should have been anticipated would be the inevitable slaughter of at least one innocent.

The whole business of Katie Bell and Ron being put at risk by Draco is reminiscent to me of Umbridge's atrocities (what a fine ring that has) - if DD truly knew what was going on, how could he stand by???? Still, I like to think there is some wisdom behind that inaction. Over time, DD may have learned that you can mess things up as much by interfering as you can by standing by.

There was an unfortunately heated discussion on the old boards where I came up with the suggestion that DD simply wouldn't do anything wrong in order to attempt to acheive greater good. I still believe that. I believe Dumbledore had reached the level of life where he was no longer foolish enough to think he could control the world and he was not afraid of death - not his death or anyone else's. I would say DD would condemn the entire Order to death rather than have them turn into evil-doers. Maybe that's extreme but that's how I see him - a Buddha-like figure, preaching that you cannot do good by doing evil (see my sig). He has taught Harry that and I think it's a lesson a very young man needs to hear because it isn't the philosophy of the majority of people - but it's Harry's job to fight and win the good fight. It's Harry's destiny and his burden. And whether he survives or not, I have great faith that he will ultimately stay true to Dumbledore's teachings.

Yes, I can't quite seem to get across to people that S.I.N.U.S. does not stand for "Snape is Evil". I don't know if he's evil, he could be. He could not be. It's kind of beside the point in some ways because I think JKR has written the last few books so they can be interpreted from either perspective and we'll just have to wait and see. But one thing I'm sure of - he ain't a "White Hat" like our dear departed Albus!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  18:41:21  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Dumbledore was so annoying in HP6. He was a peripheral character in the previous books and seemed to hint at hidden depths, but it turned out there weren't any. Booo. Boooo! He didn't know anything more than anyone else and there's no reason to follow in his footsteps. I'd love The HP to make his own way. After all, he is the one with power. Everyone else is just trying to consolidate their positions so that they're still strong when the storm hits.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  01:27:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, I knew Ben would rain on the DD-fan parade, but I still love Dumbledore, in spite of his mistakes.

And honestly Ben - how do you know Harry is the one with the power? There's no canon basis for saying for sure he has any power Voldy fears... unless you believe good old dimwit Dumbledore!


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  02:04:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slushy, could you bring me a brandy? The fire feels so nice now that I've charmed the world outside into cold and rain.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  06:30:24  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
No power?! He's The HP. I don't see this series having Hermione Granger anywhere in the title.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  11:38:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, but she could just be throwing us for a loop so we're all surprised when Neville drops an AK piano on Voldy's head.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  20:39:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Heavens, where is that House Elf? *Gets Brandy* It's so hard to find good help these days.

So what do you think about the news that JKR won't kill of a character she had planned to...? I say it's Snape and she keeps him alive just to thwart everyone who thinks he's going to die some kind of hero's death.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  20:46:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There's news? And it's about not killing a character? Must investigate this.

*trots off to find newspaper since Slushy is on break*

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  21:29:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*flops in cushy chair*

Whew! That was quite the walk. Apparently, she's killed of two charatcters that she hadn't planned on and one she had planned on killing she has (for now) saved. *sigh* I hope Snape is on the list of the dead.

Leaky is running a poll on who she's killed and who she gave the reprieve to. Snape is on the list.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  22:36:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmm - I don't really need to see Snape dead. In fact, I think I'd prefer to see him live to see Harry triumph - for triumph I think he will, even if it costs him his life.

Have a pint, DG. Long walks deserve long rests.

Hmmm - there's an awful lot of people to dispose of in Book 7 - like what will become of the Dementors? Or the Dursleys? Mundungus?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  23:25:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good Evening, everybody!

*settles into comfy chair*

It's been a long day, drove my mom into the city to do some shopping. It was exhausting but fun. Here, I brought back some Cinnabons ... they go exceptionally well with Slushy's fresh-brewed coffee.

Yay! News from JKR? How exciting! Ooh! One person is saved but two more are not so lucky ... the odds seem to be going in the wrong direction. Funny thing is my mom, daughter and I had a long talk today about who may survive the series and who may not.

We pretty much agreed that Neville can't be killed. Well, of course he could be, but it would be too sad to bear. The other name that got a lot of discussion was Luna. I love Luna ... her loyalty, her openness, and her spirit and I do not in any way, shape or form want her to be killed. But somehow, I think her death would be a little easier to accept than Neville's. That's because Luna us such a spiritual person ... she already knows that her loved ones are on the other side of the veil and she's not afraid of that. I think of her as being a bit like Dumbledore in that respect; she doesn't fear what comes after life, and because of that I could imagine her being welcomed into her mother's arms, and see her embracing the next world with the same spirit that she exhibits in this one.

The name of Snape never even came up. I guess it doesn't matter to me wheter he lives or dies, as long as he remains a wonderfully crafted character. I've always felt a sense of doom around him, which leads me to think he might not survive, however I'm not throughly convinced of it. If he's the character JKR has given the reprieve, then she has a good reason for it and I trust her. I can imagine Draco getting the reprieve, too. He is one whom it would be very easy to kill plot-wise, but perhaps not so satisfying to kill in an overall emotional sense. Not sure why I say that, but it's the feeling I get.

Now the two that are killed ... I'm guessing that she's only about a third through the book, so it can't be Ron and Hermione. She is probably referring to more secondary characters who won't be so necessary through to the end. It could be Crabbe and Goyle, so as to leave Draco without his old cronies. That scenario has synergy with Draco being the one spared.

But really, I have no idea! Anyway, it's good to be here among you folks with your great sense of humor (and your amply firewhiskey). That's just what I need right now. Now where's that pirate when you need him ...
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  01:21:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh I think she's further along than that! Remember, she's a prolific writer who doesn't know what "blocked" means. A lot of the time she spends writing is in the editing and re-writing so I'll bet she has most of the book framed by now.

I don't think Crabbe and Goyle are the ones who get the axe because she wouldn't mention "Hate Mail" as a problem if it were so.

I would agree - it's matter of indifference to me whether Snapey survives as long as he's not turned into some kind of soppy, misunderstood sap. Personally, I'm leaning slightly towards thinking he's a complete, betraying rotter so having him survive the battle of Book 7 would be awfully cynical of her... but then again, it's those kinds of people who generally do survive - the ones who don't fight for one cause or another but for themselves.

Cinnabons! You doll - it's just what I needed.

BTW, I have always expected Book 7 to be a bit grim - Rowling will (rightly) want to show that a battle to the death is ugly business and Voldemort won't go down without a fight. I expect she will want to kill some of our favorite characters, so I wouldn't count out Luna or Neville. But I hope not - I'm hoping it's Lucius and Bella!

Anyone for a game of Wizard chess?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  07:21:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

Oh I think she's further along than that! Remember, she's a prolific writer who doesn't know what "blocked" means. A lot of the time she spends writing is in the editing and re-writing so I'll bet she has most of the book framed by now.

I don't think Crabbe and Goyle are the ones who get the axe because she wouldn't mention "Hate Mail" as a problem if it were so.



I'm sure you're right about that ... I haven't really had time to chase down her exact words other than to read what you all have been talking about here. Yesterday was gruellingly long, and today promises to be just the same.

Wizard's chess sounds fun, but unfortunately for me, I'm stuck with a huge mugful of hot black coffe then off to work all day on four hours' sleep. Why only four belongs on the Stephen Fry topic .

See you all later!
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  11:47:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, it's lunchtime and I finally got the exact quote"

quote:
"The final chapter is hidden away, although it's now changed very slightly," she said in an interview broadcast on Monday on Britain's Channel 4. "One character got a reprieve, but I have to say two die that I didn't intend to die."

When asked to be more specific, she added: "No, I'm not going to commit myself, because I don't want the hate mail or anything else."


Very interesting. If, as shy says, the final chapter has changed only very slightly, I'm guessing the two extra deaths aren't major characters. *phew* The "hate mail" comment can be taken either way: Either she's afraid of getting mail about the ones she killed or about the one she reprieved. The latter is even more believable if it's Snape.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  14:07:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL - No, I think the hate mail would be about the ones she's now killing. There are as many Snape-fans as not out there - strange to say. Since the ending chapter has to be mostly about Harry, I'd say he's not one of the reprieved or "newly" killed characters, but I wouldn't say that lets out any of the other major characters.

It's a funny business writing - you'd think she'd be able to figure out who she wanted to kill in advance but I guess they weren't behaving.




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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