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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  14:26:18  Show Profile Send AMC a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There, I just needed to get the S.I.N.U.S. club established in its new home.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 06/19/2006 16:46:02

AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  15:36:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Goodness, this place is bare!

*Conjures up fireplace with stone mantel, squashy red leather chairs, nicely polished mahogany bar, Persian carpet and some tapestry wall-hangings*

Much nicer!

Now, let's see, which micro-brews should we have on tap...

*Hangs up the dartboard, unearths the Snapeshead ottomans*

Gosh, moving in is a lot of work! Pretty soon I'll be too tired to read like Nuggy - but I'm never too tired to hang out here!

You know, we need a House Elf here to keep the grate polished and keep the kegs filled. Pixie, Ben, DobbyGirl? Anyone have a name suggestion? For some reason the name "Slushy" keeps occurring to me, maybe that's our House Elf's real name and she keeps repeating it in my ear? Anyone else hearing voices?

Hey lookie here! Oh my! It's my very own smilie!!!!



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 06/19/2006 16:46:21
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  16:50:14  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Slushy sounds very much like he gets into the Butterbeer. It's perfect!
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  17:22:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*Unfolds the ping-pong table and breaks out the Snape-faced ping-pong balls*

The house elf can be Slushy if I can be Lushy! Pass the Firewhisky, please. (Seeing as Nuggy hasn't shown up yet with the Ale of the week.)

*plops into a big squashy chair and puts feet up on ottoman*

Ahhhhh! It's good to be able to abuse the old greasebag again!

You know another reason I think Snape was lying to Dumbledore, at least about some things? The night on the tower, when Draco tried to tell Dumbledore that Snape was really working for Voldemort, Draco said, "He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother --- ," to which Dumbledore replied, "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but --- ." Dumbledore was acting as if Snape hadn't actually made the promise, but had only told Draco he did to keep his cover. Of course, Snape really had vowed to Narcissa to help Draco complete his task. Now Dumbledore was not one to be duplicitous, not even to Draco. It sounds almost as if he was a bit out of the loop, and did not truly understand everything about the Unbreakable Vow that Snape had made.

So what did the lying louse actually tell Dumbledore about that Vow? Why would Dumbledore, who is nothing if not honest, try to convince Draco that Snape hadn't really promised Narcissa anything? Either the Unbreakable Vow wasn't valid (an idea which has no basis in canon) or Dumbledore was mistaken. How else could Dumbledore have been so mistaken unless Snape misled him?

By the way, anybody else think this guy looks like Crabbe?
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  17:35:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes! Just like Crabbe! Only now you get Crabbe in 4 different neck-ties so he can be in any House you want! Only, who would want Crabbe in their House?

Ooo! Good catch, Pixie! Another example of DD being a little too sure of himself. An Old Man's mistake indeed. DD is the ultimate "White Hat" but he's made some huge mistakes and obviously one of them was thinking he knew exactly what was going on all the time.

I must say, DD's demeanor doesn't exactly support the Grand Plan concept - he's not killing time waiting for Snape so he can die by the appointed hand, he's actively trying to recruit Draco over to the side of Good. He's promising to hide him, to protect him and his family. Would he make promises of that kind if he knew he wouldn't be around to deliver on them? I don't think so. DD may have been imperfect but he was both honest and deeply conscientious.

So - what exactly did the greasy one tell DD? If anything? I'm sure DD would know of Narcissa and Bella's visit so... would a clever spy tell DD about everything short of the unbreakable vow, making it look as if he was playing along with them?



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

236 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  22:55:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

I must say, DD's demeanor doesn't exactly support the Grand Plan concept - he's not killing time waiting for Snape so he can die by the appointed hand, he's actively trying to recruit Draco over to the side of Good. He's promising to hide him, to protect him and his family. Would he make promises of that kind if he knew he wouldn't be around to deliver on them? I don't think so. DD may have been imperfect but he was both honest and deeply conscientious.

A good point, but I think that, had Draco accepted, DD would have had a way (through Harry? or Snape himself?) to have the Order hide Draco and still be there on time to be killed by Snape.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  23:16:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If Draco had accepted, he'd have been toast! The next people on the scene were Death Eaters!

Even if Draco had not let any other DEs into Hogwarts and the next person on the scene was Snape (who had an unbreakable vow to fufill Draco's mission if Draco himself could not) I cannot see DD making an offer to hide Draco and his mother and then expect Harry (a student?) to figure out a way to accomplish it as he coped with Life after DD. Especially as it would blow Snape's "Cover" (if you think there is one) to return to Voldemort with DE-traitor/or DE-failure!Draco left behind.

No, if DD offered to hide Draco and Narcissa, he was holding out an olive branch from himself, as the leader of the Order. And we all know he didn't exactly confide deeply and completely in his OotP lieutenants, so I sincerely doubt he told them to take care of it - to do so he'd have had to reveal all the details of what he was expecting to have happen plus the fact that Draco was going to try to Kill him! I can't see them taking that well.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2006 :  12:53:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay with 3 votes in and DG abstaining our House Elf's name is Slushy.

The House Elf has told me quite irritably that that was ALWAYS his/her name (how do you tell?) and that I'm standing on a carpet that needs beating. Sorry. She/he's a little cranky but very clean.

(Can anyone tell if Slushy is a male or female? I don't really like to ask but this he/she thing is tedious.)

So once she/he's finished tidying up... anyone up for a nice game of "Smack Snape on the Honker" darts ?




And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

236 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2006 :  19:18:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

If Draco had accepted, he'd have been toast! The next people on the scene were Death Eaters!

Even if Draco had not let any other DEs into Hogwarts and the next person on the scene was Snape (who had an unbreakable vow to fufill Draco's mission if Draco himself could not) I cannot see DD making an offer to hide Draco and his mother and then expect Harry (a student?) to figure out a way to accomplish it as he coped with Life after DD. Especially as it would blow Snape's "Cover" (if you think there is one) to return to Voldemort with DE-traitor/or DE-failure!Draco left behind.

No, if DD offered to hide Draco and Narcissa, he was holding out an olive branch from himself, as the leader of the Order. And we all know he didn't exactly confide deeply and completely in his OotP lieutenants, so I sincerely doubt he told them to take care of it - to do so he'd have had to reveal all the details of what he was expecting to have happen plus the fact that Draco was going to try to Kill him! I can't see them taking that well.



I see it quite differently. Had Draco passed with the Order, DD would likely have been able to overcome all of the DE, move away before Snape's arrival. Snape's unbreakable vow forces Snape to try to do Draco's mission should Draco fail, but it does not say that Snape has to do it immediately to remain alive. He has to start trying to do it immediately but if he does not succeed he only has to relentlessly keep on trying to stay alive (that's my interpretation).
Alternatively, had Draco passed to the order, DD could have asked Snape to hide Draco. A combination on Snape, DD and Harry could have gotten rid of the DE, Snape could have killed DD, hidden Draco and since no witnesses, none would have been the wiser that Snape is spy.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  00:14:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think you might be forgeting that once Snape had killed DD, he would not exactly be a welcomed member of the Order. Oh Hi Remus, Molly. Here's a little Death Eater for you, his name's Draco. I've just killed Dumbles, but it's okay - he wanted me to. And Draco's on our side now, really. He tried to kill Dumbledore but couldn't... so I did. Could you just hide him and his mother so I can pretend they're dead? Dumbledore wanted you to do that too, he told me so. Thanks ever so much... now I've got to run along and get in solid with Voldemort. Ta!

Just out of curiosity, since HPCS crowd is so convinced that no one can do powerful wandless magic - how could Dumbledore, in his greatly weakened and wandless state, have over-powered four angry DEs? With a broken butterbeer bottle perhaps? (Sorry, that was bad but irresistable)


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  08:25:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC

Okay with 3 votes in and DG abstaining our House Elf's name is Slushy.




I was not abstaining, I just hadn't found the place yet. But I agree with Slushy!

I was just listening to HBP on CD and I'm on the HBP chapter. It got me thinking about why now after all these years, Dumbledore finally let Snape have the DADA job. Yes, you could make the argument that there wasn't anyone else available or that it was a plot device, but there has to be a better reason than that. I mean, the job is cursed! Did DD really think that Snape could withstand the curse?

*throws darts at Snape picture*

There are so many unanswered questions from what happened up on that tower. I think DD was just trying to see if he could get Draco to say yes to his offer to see if Draco had any possiblity of redemption.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  13:01:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know, DG - the fact that DD gave Snape the job makes me feel that DD knew Snape would leave Hogwarts soon. That plus the fact that DD was pleading with Snape at the end are the factors that make me feel it's possible that DD knew Snape would kill him. But I still can't buy the Grand Plan concept, it seems so unlike DD to ask someone to commit murder. It's possible that you could view it as assisted suicide when someone is dying already. But since S.I.N.U.S. I like to think there is something else going on.

I think DD was dying and I think he knew it. When one of the DEs asks what happened to him he says "weaker resistence, slower reflexes.. old age" (not exact quote). That sounds like he knew his personal resources were dwindling. Also, the fact that he took on Harry's education in Voldy's background indicates to me that he knew his time in this world was coming to an end.

So I think there's a lot of evidence that Dumbledore knew he was going to die and also he had determined that this was Snape's last year at Hogwarts. He even brought in an experienced Head of Slytherin House to take over.

One thing really bugs me - why did DD plead with Snape? I mean, if it had already been agreed upon that Snape would do the deed, why plead? If it hadn't - what was Dumbledore pleading for? Not for his life - I can't believe that.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 06/17/2006 13:02:58
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  13:50:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oooo! I have an idea.

Okay, S.I.N.U.S. members, try on this theory:

Dumbledore knows the protection he has given Harry will expire when he comes of age. This was the point of his meeting with the Dursleys (love that scene). He also knows he's been seriously hurt by destroying Voldy's horcrux and won't be as able to protect Harry as he previously has (He might even know he's dying but doesn't know when).

After his battle with the ring-horcrux, DD visits Snape (we know this happens) and discusses the next year. He knows the DADA job is what Snape wants but he knows it's cursed. He asks Snape to rejoin Voldemort before Harry's 17th birthday to protect Harry from inside the DEs. DD trusts Snape, remember - I almost wonder if DD doesn't trust Snape because Snape made a vow to protect Harry's life? DD says Snape he can have the DADA job for the next year only but he'll need to find a way to rejoin the DEs before Harry's birthday. Snape agrees.

Snape is still playing two sides. He sees that DD is failing and if there's one thing Snape detests, it's weakness. He already thinks DD is weak with emotion, now he's lost his magical edge. Snape agrees to rejoin the DEs. He takes the unbreakable vow to kill DD because he knows DD is failing and he's already agreed to rejoin the DEs - this is a perfect way to solidify his position with them.

The night of Draco's trap, DD asks for Snape because he thinks Snape will be able to counteract the Dark Magic in the potion. He knows he's pretty close to dying and although he's going to try to live his major concern is protecting Harry. When DD is talking to Draco he makes a last-ditch effort to save Draco, but it's too late, the DEs arrive. Once the DEs join them, DD knows he won't survive the evening but he doesn't want them to take Harry too. When Snape is about to kill him, DD pleads "Severus... Please" - meaning "please... remember your vow to protect Harry". It's like his howler to Petunia - "Remember My Last".

I like the idea that DD asked Snape to return to the DEs because it explains why he set things up so conveniently for him to do so. Note that DD does not have to ask Snape to kill him for this to make sense.

Now the big question with this is.. what side is Snape on? Personally I would still say "His Own". He always tries to stay with the side with the strongest players and after DD is hurt, he's given up on the Order as a bunch of losers. Which isn't to say he wouldn't desert the DEs if Voldy was weakened. He's a complete opportunist.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  18:27:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh Snape is most definately on his own side. I don't even see the point of arguing that. Even Draco accuses Snape of trying to hone in on Draco's plan to kill DD to "get the glory for himself".

quote:
He asks Snape to rejoin Voldemort before Harry's 17th birthday to protect Harry from inside the DEs.


But really, how much is Snape trusted? We only hear his side of the story in Chapter 2. Bellatrix doesn't trust him as far as she could throw him. How many other DE feel the same way? Dictators like Voldemort never truly trust anyone but themselves. And now that Snape has killed the head of the Order, who in the Order is going to trust him? There's no way he can keep passing info to them, so I have a hard time seeing how Snape can protect Harry from inside the DE's.

Hey, I wonder if we could get a smilie like this but with a big red X on it.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  22:15:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was thinking the same thing! A Snape smilie with a red circle and slash.

I don't know, DG. I certainly wouldn't trust him and there's no way to Order will now - but DD did trust him, that's one of the things he said over and over. So the question is: given that DD trusted Snape, would DD have thought Snape had a better chance of protecting Harry from inside the DEs?

I think the whole issue of exactly why DD trusts the greasy one is still unknown and probably will be revealed in book 7. If Snape had taken a vow to DD to protect Harry when he professed contrition for James and Lily's deaths... would that be enough? Would DD have asked for such a vow?

Just out of curiosity - how many S.I.N.U.S. members think Snape was with Voldemort when he killed James and Lily? *Raises Hand*



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2006 :  18:28:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC


I think the whole issue of exactly why DD trusts the greasy one is still unknown and probably will be revealed in book 7. If Snape had taken a vow to DD to protect Harry when he professed contrition for James and Lily's deaths... would that be enough? Would DD have asked for such a vow?


Knowing DD trusting nature (and belief in giving second chances), I doubt he would have required Snape to make any such vow. Besides, it seems like there needs to be a third person to make an Unbreakable vow (and no one seems to know why Snape was so trusted by DD), if that is what you are referring to AMC. As for a regular vow, Snape probably wouldn't keep it even if he did make it.

OH, if there was an Unbreakable Vow made I bet DD's brother was the third needed!!!!!

quote:
Just out of curiosity - how many S.I.N.U.S. members think Snape was with Voldemort when he killed James and Lily? *Raises Hand*



*raises hand*

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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

236 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2006 :  23:13:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AMC
Just out of curiosity, since HPCS crowd is so convinced that no one can do powerful wandless magic - how could Dumbledore, in his greatly weakened and wandless state, have over-powered four angry DEs? With a broken butterbeer bottle perhaps? (Sorry, that was bad but irresistable)


He could have borrowed either Draco's or Harry's wand.
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Wizard from Milan
Barmy

236 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2006 :  23:17:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dobbygirl
I was just listening to HBP on CD and I'm on the HBP chapter. It got me thinking about why now after all these years, Dumbledore finally let Snape have the DADA job. Yes, you could make the argument that there wasn't anyone else available or that it was a plot device, but there has to be a better reason than that. I mean, the job is cursed! Did DD really think that Snape could withstand the curse?


You see why SINE makes so much sense. I never had a problem with this. Snape takes the U.Vow, he runs to DD and tell him and offers his own (Snape's own) life for DD. DD says "no, no, your role is more important than mine,..." at that point DD realizes that Snape will not remain to the School for a full year and therefore gives him the DADA job
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2006 :  23:42:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wiz, you are SO on the wrong thread!

Snape offers his life in exchange for Dumbledore's! That's sooooo unlikely! The man's never done an unselfish thing in canon and we're supposed to imagine he's going to give his life to save an elderly wizard who treasures everything Snape detests??? Not!

Dobbygirl, I feel the same way - it wouldn't be like Dumbledore to ask for an unbreakable vow, even from a greasy slimebag like Snape. I think he'd feel it was beneath him to ask for someone's loyalty in such a way. But it would explain why he (and only he) felt so confident in Snape. Which is a major puzzle. But, in the event it did occur, I did wonder about the third person - you think it's Alberforth, of the inappropriate goat-charms?

I also wondered about unbreakable vows - do they ever end? How about if the "bonder" dies? I think JKR answered "no" to that about secret-keepers, I guess it's the same concept.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2006 :  15:38:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the Potterverse, spells only seem to end when the person who cast them dies. In the case of the Fidelius Charm, the secret-keeper is the object of the magic, not the person who casts it. Therefore, the charm would not be broken with the secret-keeper's death. It would only be broken when the person who cast the spell dies. This explains the mystery of how Lily and James' bodies were found at Godric's Hollow even though Peter hadn't told the OotP about their location: Lily or James had cast the Fidelius charm, and it was broken with their death, making them visible to all.

Applying the same logic to the Unbreakable Vow, it could possibly be broken with the death of the Bonder. Possibly, that is, if it is not a premanent spell, as so many in the Potterverse seem to be. We simply can't tell from what we know so far.




*raises hand too about Snape being at Godric's Hollow*

Snape is definitely in it for himself. I think it's time to re-float a theory I suggested on the yo-yos before HBP came out. I'll warn you though, it was thoroughly pooh-poohed back then ... just as thoroughly as my idea that Snape was the one who overheard the Prophecy. (You pooh-pooher's know who you are! ) But now we know what we do, it might be time to revisit the idea once again:

Severus Snape was the wizard who sent the Lestranges after Frank and Alice Longbottom.

Here's the relevant quote from JKRowling.com, dated Dec. 10, 2004:

quote:
Rumor: The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him.

JKR: No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.

JKR clearly implies that the Lestranges were sent after Fank and Alice Longbottom by someone who knew about the Prophecy and connected them to it. We now know that this wizard, the one who knew about the Prophecy and who JKR couldn't talk about at the time because it would spoil the surprise, was Snape.

"No, no!" I hear some of you cry, "It was Lucius! Voldemort told Lucius about the Prophecy and he was the one who sent the Lestranges after the Longbottoms!" If it was Lucius, why wouldn't JKR come right out and say so -- there's no secret there. And why, I ask, would Voldemort tell anyone else about such a dangerous prophecy, when Snape already knew? Voldemort trusts no one and does not operate that way. He had already entrusted Lucius with one horcrux, and revealing the secret of the Prophecy to him would concentrate too much risk with one person. I think he didn't tell Lucius, Bellatrix and the others about the prophecy until after he was reborn, when he became obsessed with learning its full contents.

Back to the Longbottoms, I believe the Self-Serving Greasy Git sent Crazy Bella and her sidekicks after Frank and Alice to see what they knew about Voldemort's disappearance. He wasn't quite cold enough to order the murder of a baby, but he had no problems with torturing the baby's parents (and terrorizing the child himself in later years.) The slimeball wanted to be absolutely sure that his old master was gone before he cozied up to Dumbledore for good. And he did a good job of it too, at least until Voldemort returned at the end of GoF.

So there, pooh-pooh it if you will. But you have to admit, it looks a whole lot more likely this side of HBP.

Edited by - n/a on 06/19/2006 16:17:41
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2006 :  16:04:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There There Pixie - you're with friends now.

I for one never heard your theory on this, probably because you posted it when I was assiduously avoiding the restricted board to avoid the rampant Snape-lurve. I think it makes complete sense - who but someone with knowledge of the prophecy would have targeted the Longbottoms? And why would Voldy have told Lucius about the prophecy? The last thing Voldemort would have wanted was to spread the word among his followers that he could potentially be destroyed by a new-born babe.

Oooo - and you know, it explains something that has puzzled me. I always wondered why Snape bothered to lie to Bella about thinking Harry could be the next Dark Lord. But it makes sense - it wasn't a lie, he did think so. And he was hanging around waiting to see if Harry was to be the "next big thing" so he could get on that gravy train early on. But Harry did not impress him as sufficiently powerful or dark enough to "cultivate".




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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2006 :  18:21:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

Back to the Longbottoms, I believe the Self-Serving Greasy Git sent Crazy Bella and her sidekicks after Frank and Alice to see what they knew about Voldemort's disappearance. He wasn't quite cold enough to order the murder of a baby, but he had no problems with torturing the baby's parents (and terrorizing the child himself in later years.) The slimeball wanted to be absolutely sure that his old master was gone before he cozied up to Dumbledore for good. And he did a good job of it too, at least until Voldemort returned at the end of GoF.




I don't remember hearing this theory before, but with so many board crashes, I may have missed it. I agree that the Slimeball was the one who could have sent the Lestranges after the Longbottoms. It seems that there weren't very many people who knew about the Prophecy. It definately wasn't in Voldie's best interests for his followers to know about the Prophecy so he would've told no one.

Wiz, I respect your right to try and redeem the slimey one, but as stated before, DD would probably never require a vow (Unbreakable or not) from anyone. In HBP, he does make Harry promise to follow his orders no matter what. Harry keeps his promise because he respects and trusts DD. A promise can easily be broken, especially if it was made with fingers crossed.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  00:54:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey! I'm addled!


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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  01:09:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
(I altered the first post of the thread to make it very short and snappy, since it seems we'll see it each time we post.)

Okay, so on the old board we had formulated a few things S.I.N.U.S. members agreed upon - not exactly our creed but our joint outlook.

Here's what I can put together:
1. Snape is a Nasty, Underhanded Slimeball (that one is a given)

But how about...?
2. Snape has been serving both Dumbledore and Voldemort (and possibly deceiving both).
3. Snape is not motivated by any cause but his own "career" - he wants to be on the winning side, regardless of what side it is.
4. This smilie looks like Crabbe
5. In the summer before Year 6 Dumbledore asked Snape to leave Hogwarts and rejoin the DEs.
6. Dumbledore did not know Snape had made an unbreakable vow to help Draco if he failed to kill DD.
7. Dumbledore did not ask Snape to kill him.
8. Dumbledore was wrong to trust Snape.
9. Snape was there when Voldemort killed the Potters.
10. Snape sent Bella after the Longbottoms.

Wow - if most of that hangs together, it's really shaping up that the greasy one IS evil!

But one thing really bugs me - I like and respect DD despite his mistakes. He was quite clear about how much he trusted Snape - why? Why? Why? He even saved Snape from the Wizengamot saying Snape was no more a DE than he was. Why? Why? Why?

How could Dumbledore be SO wrong?


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.


Edited by - AMC on 06/20/2006 01:13:49
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  01:21:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, so I google "Why did Dumbledore Trust Snape?" and I get this from Mugglenet - I totally love it.

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-mschonzeit01.shtml


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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dobbygirl
Barmy

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  06:35:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the link AMC. It was very interesting. The thought that DD was too trusting of a person, that he needed to see the good in everyone, has really been playing on my mind since the last time I listened to the tower scene in HBP. I know that deals more with Draco, but it's in the same vein of thought. DD could've stopped Draco at any time during the year but he wanted to redeem Draco; find the good in him. DD was the same way with Slimey.

Oye! Slushy....get me a tea and cookies! *snaps fingers*

Proud member of SINUS

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  08:50:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dubledore was probably a little too trusting and lenient where Tom Riddle was concerned, too. He may have "kept an annoyingly close eye on him," but did he really do anything more to prevent Tom from becoming what he did? And I wonder how close an eye Dumbledore really kept on Tom; he actually knew quite little about the young man until years later when he went back searching for memories.

In all fairness, I doubt that even Dumbledore could have foreseen what was to become of Riddle, but he certainly suspected that Tom was capable of horrible things. Still he stood back, trusted that Tom could mature and change, and let it all happen. Maybe he was too busy fighting Grindelwald to realize that a far greater evil was lurking right under his nose.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  10:58:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I think JKR has said that Dumbledore's tendancy was always to wait and not interfere - to see if things worked out on their own. She said her own sister was irritated with her for how long DD let things go badly without stepping in! I certainly felt that way about Umbridge and her cursed pen... grrr.

Slushy, could we have a round of berry-cake and tea for the party? And Fire-whiskey in the tea for the Lushy one. Thanks.

I'm feeling less troubled about this than I have in a long time - the whole question of DD/Snape has really preyed on my mind (I know, I'm obsessed) but it's all making pretty good sense to me now.



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  11:02:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey! Do you think that DD's mistake, the one he regrets and fears, has to do with not reining in Tom Riddle when Tom was at Hogwarts? Letting him act freely rather than clamping down? Do you think DD regrets his tendancy towards letting things take their course and now feels responsible in some way for the evil Voldemort does?



And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  18:15:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know if that is his biggest mistake, but Dumbledore surely has to have second-guessed his lack of action all those years ago. Especially when he went searching into Riddle's past and found out that none of his schoolmates would talk about him and what he did at school because they were too afraid. You have to wonder what was going on at Hogwarts right under all their noses (well, beyond the opening of the CoS, among other things).

Dumbledore pretty much failed where Riddle was concerned, and he had to regret that keenly. Perhaps that regret was part of the reason he was so determined to give Snape a second chance. In doing so, he was also giving himself a second chance to turn another angry, misguided young man upon the right path. He certainly kept Snape close after he took him back under his wing.

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  18:30:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have an idea ... I think it would be nice to send our friends over at SINE a housewarming present. We have our lovely club room here on the new boards with darts, cushy armchairs, a crackling fire, ping-pong, and even our own house-elf. We need to help them get set up in comfort too.

I'm hoping we can get together a nice package of fun stuff for them. I've already thrown in a few items they might enjoy:

1) Some fine Belgian chocolates, because you can never have too much chololate!
2) A life-size blow-up doll of Snape, complete with billowing robes (like a super-hero), to keep them company. (It was the only one I could find around here that wasn't full of dart holes.)
3) Some excellent violin music.
4) A bottle of Slushy's finest Oak-Matured Mead so we can all get together and have a party after Book Seven comes out.

I'll set the box here on the table so everyone can contribute. When it's ready, Slushy can take it over to them.
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