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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  12:55:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll bet it was Ginny catching Harry naked in the Forbidden Forest with a Hippogriff!

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  17:32:28  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I don't care if it's a fact of life - it's an artefact of the way sex is stigmatised as something that only abnormal people do, whereas it's a perfectly natural thing. I doubt the stigma attached is a 'fact of life' at all - it's purely cultural. And as such I am allowed to kick up a fuss about it.

I AM AGITATING FOR MORE SEX IN THEO'S FANFIC.

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  20:02:13  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
More sex? Don't you have to have "some" before you can have "more"? :)
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  20:12:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
More sex? Don't you have to have "some" before you can have "more"? :)




quote:
Originally posted by Myf

I don't care if it's a fact of life - it's an artefact of the way sex is stigmatised as something that only abnormal people do, whereas it's a perfectly natural thing. I doubt the stigma attached is a 'fact of life' at all - it's purely cultural. And as such I am allowed to kick up a fuss about it.

I AM AGITATING FOR MORE SEX IN THEO'S FANFIC.

I'll have to do an 'R' rated version just for you!

I'm not saying that the stigma against sex is a good thing, but it is ingrained in the culture and that's not going to change overnight. At least we're not living in Victorian times when people really were taught that sex was abnormal.

Perhaps the ultimate consolation though is that far more people have sex in real life than run around committing violent acts.

And yes, Myf, you're allowed to kick up as much of a fuss as you like.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/17/2006 20:15:17
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  21:35:58  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Count me in for the R rated version too. :) I can't wait for discussion time!

I was reading a thing (yes, a thing!) on a movie called "This Film Is Not Yet Rated" about the MPAA itself, how it rates its movies and their justifications for doing so. Needless to say they're very biased and are not quite what they represent themselves to be. ie. their board is not made up of responsible parents, but members of the clergy and people from major movie studios, ensuring that independant, more risque content will be rated more harshly as they have no advocates.

There's plenty more about it on the web. I don't want to repeat everything in this thread. :)

Oh, I think this is the thing I read: http://www.boingboing.net/2006/09/16/this_film_is_not_rat.html

Edited by - MrBen on 09/17/2006 21:39:42
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  05:59:42  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Oh yeah, I read that Boing Boing article too, Ben. Looks like a great film. Industry-based homophobia doesn't sound too far from the mark, IMHO. And that's just for starters.


If you're looking for trouble you found it.
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2006 :  13:31:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There used to be some very silly rules for TV censors, too. If a couple was shown in a bedroom scene, for instance, at least one of the couple had to have their feet on the floor. Kisses could only last so long. I think it was a requirement that twin beds be used rather than a double. We had a similar conversation going in IR where Foe had posted about Daniel Radcliff appearing in Equus. Personally, I agree that nudity/sex is no big deal. It just requires us as viewers to be aware and make decisions about what we go see and what we take our children to see. Then again I have a copy of "Henry and June" (NC-17) on DVD, too.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2006 :  11:25:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wikipedia has a very interesting article regarding the X/NC-17 ratings. The current conversation made me curious what the "official" difference was between porn and NC-17. I certainly do not class a movie like "Henry and June" with porn-- the sexual content is not gratuitious. Sex was a dominant part Anais Nin's life after all-- there would be no way to make a movie of it with simple innuendo and do it justice.

I did find it interesting that X originally included extreme violence in it's list of no-nos.

As to Harry Potter, though, I don't see how explicit sexual content fits in-- how it could be a necessary part of the story. Yes, these are all teenagers, but the storyline is not about their "teenageyness" (though it does make small appearances), it's about the defeat of evil and, most probably, a war. I can accept the violence in this context up to the point that it becomes gratuitous-- same with sexual content. Innuendo, kissing, perhaps more depending on how it is handled would be fine, but going into full detail would be going too far. These are meant to be kids' books after all. Most parents would be unhappy with the idea that their child's first knowledge of sex came from reading Harry Potter.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2006 :  18:56:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Even as adult literature, sex doesn't belong in HP because it would simply add nothing to the story. There's no connection to any of the underlying themes and with something that significant, there would have to be. However, the hardcore stuff aside, there is tremendous leeway for innuendo and sexual tension which is really far more interesting anyway - at least it's more interesting to write. I must confess though that this did present a problem for me when I was writing HPEW.

As my thorough absense from the Stephen Fry thread will attest, I am not given to talking about sex and have always been rather oblivious to innuendo. That had to change fast when Myf became my beta reader because I kept getting raised eyebrows from her over things which I thought were entirely innocent. Of course it didn't help that my main protagonists were Harry and Snape. If I was oblivious to innuendo, slash wasn't even in my vocabulary, so I was a bit stunned to realize that I had to worry about this admittedly intense relationship not being taken the wrong way.

The first time I ever wrote anything intentionally risque was the chess game over Christmas in HPEW and I was so unbelievably nervous about it, but I have hopefully learned a lot in the last couple of years. At least I now recognize when something I write might have a double meaning. And I am constantly aware of the level of physical and emotional tension between Harry and Snape whenever they are together. I have no choice and I've come to accept that. But I am also learning to become more comfortable with innuendo and sexual tension and even to occasionally use them as opposed to simply avoiding them. Only time will tell if I've learned the last lesson well.

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"Always"

Edited by - Theowyn on 09/20/2006 19:10:17
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2006 :  06:57:34  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Even as adult literature, sex doesn't belong in HP because it would simply add nothing to the story.


That's true in the broad scope of things. But look at all the fanfic out there which does deal with the sexual aspect of the relationships. Sure, there's a terrible lot of pointless dross out there but there are also some decent fics which aim to portray the lives of these people, and to have a massive black blot with a sign saying 'Nothing to see here, kids!' is doing a disservice to the sort of writing that people do with fanfic. To be honest, Theo, your story adds nothing to the canon of HP, but you're writing it anyway and we're reading it and everyone's enjoying themselves. Same thing with other sorts of fanfic - we care about these characters; why not write about an important part of their lives?

quote:
The first time I ever wrote anything intentionally risque was the chess game over Christmas in HPEW and I was so unbelievably nervous about it


And you were apparently on tenterhooks about my comments, and I didn't make any! It all worked fine and I didn't see the need to make any comment at all. [:I]

Siobhan said:
quote:

These are meant to be kids' books after all. Most parents would be unhappy with the idea that their child's first knowledge of sex came from reading Harry Potter.


Do you mean in fanfic or in canon?

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2006 :  10:27:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I meant canon, as I think did Theo, rather than fanfic. We're not saying that sex has no impact on all HP writing, just on this particular one and on JKR's. It is all too easy to fall into the trap of adding "hot topic" scenes to a story just because one can instead of because it fits with the story one is attempting to tell. Gratuitous sex or violence often make weak spots in stories.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2006 :  13:17:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

I meant canon, as I think did Theo, rather than fanfic. We're not saying that sex has no impact on all HP writing, just on this particular one and on JKR's. It is all too easy to fall into the trap of adding "hot topic" scenes to a story just because one can instead of because it fits with the story one is attempting to tell. Gratuitous sex or violence often make weak spots in stories.


Yes. I was talking specifically about canon. There is certainly a great deal of fanfic out there that centers on sexual situations - and some of it is excellent. It's just a departure from what you would find in canon.

The key to how well sex, violence, or anything else works is in how well it is written. Just as Mary Sues are tedious, even sex can be boring if it isn't done right. I've read x-rated scenes that probably wouldn't get a rise out of teenagers and others that would make octogenarians weak in the knees.

It takes skill to write this stuff well and as Siobhan says, a big part of that is also properly integrating it into the plot. If a writer doesn't then the emotional impact is severly limited and the whole thing falls flat.

quote:
quote:
The first time I ever wrote anything intentionally risque was the chess game over Christmas in HPEW and I was so unbelievably nervous about it

And you were apparently on tenterhooks about my comments, and I didn't make any![:I]
And I was mortified and thought I hadn't done it right!



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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/21/2006 13:24:33
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2006 :  18:20:29  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding, guys! I've been hearing some knee-jerk reactions lately about how there should never be anything racy in any HP fanfic ever, and that just makes me annoyed.

How's the new chapter coming along, Theo? You're not waiting on anything from me, are you?

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
Professor Stephen Hawking
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2006 :  23:01:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Myf

Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding, guys! I've been hearing some knee-jerk reactions lately about how there should never be anything racy in any HP fanfic ever, and that just makes me annoyed.

Ignore them, Myf. Fanfic on the internet is just about the ultimate venue for free expression. No one's going to stop writing racy stories just because others complain... especially when there's obviously a large audience for it.

quote:
How's the new chapter coming along, Theo? You're not waiting on anything from me, are you?
No, you're caught up. I'm the one who's behind. I spent the last week writing an essay for Scribbulus. It's finished now (except for the footnotes which I despise) so I'm back to chapter 16. I've finished the rewrite on 15, but it was so minor that I thought I'd just wait and send it along with 16 which will hopefully be to you some time next week.

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"Always"

Edited by - Theowyn on 09/21/2006 23:06:27
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2006 :  12:16:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Myf

Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding, guys! I've been hearing some knee-jerk reactions lately about how there should never be anything racy in any HP fanfic ever, and that just makes me annoyed.
That's too bad. I don't have a problem with fanfic doing what it wants to with the characters. I'd prefer it to be well written, but since I don't read much of it, I don't have a great basis for judgment. What I meant was that it would be a shame for JKR to throw in a scene simply to appease fans who begged for it rather than that it fit in with where the story was headed.

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2006 :  19:19:02  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Oh, I really can't see her doing something like that, Siobhan (although perhaps I should cross my fingers because you never know). I think one of the only things JKR did in response to fan discussions about HP was to make Tonks look like a potential Mary Sue (ridiculously over the top name, oh so shiny special powerz) and then make her just as much a decent character as everyone else.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2006 :  20:05:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I suppose that's one of the advantages of not having read a lot of fanfic-- not noticing the "mary sue" aspect.
Have you read any "sequels" to Pride and Prejudice, or Gone With the Wind?

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2006 :  01:26:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting. Tonks never struck me as a Mary Sue, but the one thing that did come across as "I'm talking to the fans here" was Snape's whole litany of explanations to Bella at Spinner's End. That whole part of the conversation just seemed forced and contrived and it's not as if any of it was a surprise. More like, "let's have the characters conveniently recap and explain all those nagging questions everyone's been debating over the last five books so people will stop endlessly asking them."

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2006 :  19:13:04  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
No, I don't think Tonks was meant to be a Mary Sue, just sort of a shout-out to the concept.

I think the Spinners End section was a necessary thing, and any author would think it a good idea to have her story make sense, whether the readers liked it or not. I never read it and thought 'She's pandering to the nitpicky readers!' If she had long convoluted explanations that didn't really need to be in the book, I think she'd stick it on her website.

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
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SweetPea
Addled

Canada
184 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2006 :  02:10:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Have you read any "sequels" to Pride and Prejudice, or Gone With the Wind?


I have read a slew of Pride and Prejudice sequels. Some were good, and some were 'meh'. I find that Linda Berdoll's "Mr. Darcy Takes a Wife" and "Darcy and Elizabeth" are amazing and excellently written. They seem to reflect the character nature very well, and don't come across as a fantasy. I hope she writes more, I just eat those books up

"An Assembly Such As This" was "o.k", I didn't like the was Chrales Bingley was written, it irked me so much. It's part one of a triogy, so I'll get the rest when they come out. "The Diary of Henry Fitzwilliam Darcy" was a decent one, but "Pemberly" was a bit over the top.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  00:59:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Everyone!

I just sent out chapter 13. Let me know if it doesn't reach you.

Theo

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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  15:37:48  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
We had company last night, and so by the time I got a chance to read Chapter 13, it was very late. I kept falling asleep in the chair while I was on page 6--due to my rotten cold, not anything to do witht the chapter, Theo.

So I finished reading it this morning. Now, honestly, is Harry going to be a good boy and not go back into the chamber again? That's too intriguing to just leave alone, isn't it? And my guess is that at some point, Hagrid will remember who the other boys in the photo were--but maybe it doesn't really matter.

What Harry and the others figured out about the diary/soul thing--actually what Riddle said about it--is a little different than canon, or at least the way I read it. Is that because they were reading the earlier application of what Riddle was doing?

The only thing that seemed out of character for Harry, according to canon, is that he went so quickly to Dumbledore with his new-found information. But according to Thanon , I guess it is appropriate.

Good chapter, Theo. But I wasn't ready for it to end, and I do want to know what Snape is sneaking off to do, even if Harry thinks he doesn't--which, of course, he really does.

Eeyore

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  18:06:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eeyore

Now, honestly, is Harry going to be a good boy and not go back into the chamber again? That's too intriguing to just leave alone, isn't it? And my guess is that at some point, Hagrid will remember who the other boys in the photo were--but maybe it doesn't really matter.

You'll find out in the next chapter.

quote:
What Harry and the others figured out about the diary/soul thing--actually what Riddle said about it--is a little different than canon, or at least the way I read it. Is that because they were reading the earlier application of what Riddle was doing?

Hmm... I think that depends on what you mean. If we look at CoS then I think my description is within the bounds of canon. The diary was able to possess Ginny and was draining her life force which is vague enough to equate to soul. But the consistency with canon is strictly pre-HBP.

This is probably a good time to clarify how closely HPCS is sticking to canon.

Insofar as the characters are concerned, it is my intent that they should be absolutely faithful to their canon counterparts. Anything my Harry does I believe that canon!Harry could do as well. That doesn't mean that others won't disagree with my interpretation, but from my pov, I'm striving for total character consistency.

A good example of this, Eeyore, is your observation of how quickly Harry goes to DD with the info on Riddle's research. It's a fair question. From my pov, Harry was fairly open with DD in HBP. He didn't hide his suspicions of Draco, for instance. So I think it's at least arguable that he'd go to DD with this information. Others might disagree, but I hope that everyone can at least see how canon!Harry MIGHT do this.

Canon events are an entirely different story, however. Because this is a continuation of HPEW not HBP, there are canon facts that I must flatly contradict. DD being alive is a glaring example. There are other less obvious differences though, the main one being the issue of LV's immortality and this is where we may come back to the diary. This needs to be very clear:

*** THERE ARE NO HORCRUXES IN HPCS ***

This was a personal decision. I could have used Horcruxes, but since we already know or suspect so much about these and will have an entire book devoted to them in HP7, it seemed pointless to use them here. Instead, I am using an alternate explanation for LV's immortality. This is the explanation I dreamed up when I was writing HPEW, long before I ever heard about Horcruxes. There are some superficial parallells in that we're obviously talking about disembodied souls, but that's pretty much where it stops. I'm hoping that this will provide an interesting and unexpected read because in HPCS, you don't know why LV is immortal.

quote:
Good chapter, Theo. But I wasn't ready for it to end, and I do want to know what Snape is sneaking off to do, even if Harry thinks he doesn't--which, of course, he really does.

This, you won't find out in the next chapter... but you will eventually. Poor Harry has so much on his mind. He would dearly love to forget about Snape, but he really does have a thing for saving people and Snape has fallen into Harry's protective orbit - something that neither of them ever intended. A good question to ask Harry would be to whom his explative, "Bloody idiot!" was referring. I bet it was directed as much at himself as at Snape.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/30/2006 00:04:17
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  20:26:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting. I wasn't as convinced as Harry was that the figure with long black hair headed toward the Forbidden Forest was Snape. I thought Harry jumped to the conclusion that it was Snape and there was room for a reasonable doubt ie, Harry didn't deduce who the person was by the manner of their walk and/or a distinctive hooked nose profile he went solely on the long black hair and the direction the person was going. True Snape has been known to go out at night heading toward the forest, but this could have been someone else.
It is so sad that every time Harry takes his information to Dumbledore (as we've all been waiting for him to do), he gets roadblocked. Harry is trying very hard to come at this problem of Voldemort's immortality from a perspective he can handle. I wish Dumbledore would give him a little more credit for it before forbidding any further speculation or searching down that particular road-- or perhaps explain what the dangers are a little more openly. I know this goes into Dumbledore's character, but it is one of my peeves. Handing Harry a solution without letting him learn what the problem entails is a bit high handed (not intentionally so-- I understand that D is trying to protect everyone, but stil...)-- especially if the solution isn't effective and needs to be improvised upon. Perhaps this goes back to Dumbledore's fears of the mental link between Harry and Voldemort....
Great chapter, Theo. I really liked the return to the Chamber. Did someone clear up the rock fall that Lockhart made the last time they were in the tunnel leading to the Chamber? Ginny's contributions were well done.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  23:49:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Interesting. I wasn't as convinced as Harry was that the figure with long black hair headed toward the Forbidden Forest was Snape. I thought Harry jumped to the conclusion that it was Snape and there was room for a reasonable doubt...

You're right, of course. It's dark and Harry is easily a couple of hundred yards away. It's impossible to make out features at that distance. He can't even analyze the person's gait because the figure keeps moving in and out of the shadows. But people see what they expect to see and what's most interesting is that Harry isn't even aware that he's jumping to conclusions here.

quote:
It is so sad that every time Harry takes his information to Dumbledore (as we've all been waiting for him to do), he gets roadblocked. Harry is trying very hard to come at this problem of Voldemort's immortality from a perspective he can handle. I wish Dumbledore would give him a little more credit for it before forbidding any further speculation or searching down that particular road--...

Yes, this is sad and yes it is DD's penchant to act this way. DD's problem is that he knows a lot more than anyone else and he's making unilateral decisions based on these criteria that no one else knows about. He's trying to do what's in everyone's best interests, but of course, he makes mistakes.

quote:
I really liked the return to the Chamber. Did someone clear up the rock fall that Lockhart made the last time they were in the tunnel leading to the Chamber? Ginny's contributions were well done.


No, no one cleared up the rock fall, but Ron and Harry cleared away enough of it to make it passable in CoS and more bits of it have fallen apart since then due to the natural shifting of the ground, water seepage, etc. So it's a mess, but they can get by.

I'm glad you liked Ginny. What she went through with diary!Riddle has been given awfully short shrift in canon. I like to think that the experience really did give her some useful insight.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/29/2006 23:52:07
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  15:39:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let's hope so, otherwise it seems a terrible waste to have had her go through all that. JKR has only used it once that I recall and that was in OoP where Harry is afraid he's been possessed.

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  21:19:17  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Harry's possessed by the Squid??

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2006 :  10:43:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup. He feels all warm and squishy inside everytime he sees Ginny.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2006 :  19:54:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi guys! Popping in to say that we are going to have a week delay for chapter 14. Ch 15 and 16 are currently in beta, so I need to hold off on posting until they are done. Thanks for your patience.


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Edited by - Theowyn on 10/11/2006 19:55:01
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sunsethill
Confunded

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Posted - 10/12/2006 :  13:44:46  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Let's hope so, otherwise it seems a terrible waste to have had her go through all that. JKR has only used it once that I recall and that was in OoP where Harry is afraid he's been possessed.




Amen to that Siobhan. Surely it will be important again later. There are lots of things I want pulled together in book 7, but I think that will be one of my top five disappointments if it isn't important again in some way that Ginny was possessed by Tom Riddle.

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