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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2007 :  10:32:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Harry's "oh that's what Bella meant" bothered me-- especially since it was the only reaction we got to his using an Unforgiveable. Heck, even McGonagall didn't bat an eyelash at it. I guess we ought to be happy that we never saw any of the "good" guys (Snape excepted) use Avada Kedavra.
This just makes it a little harder to accept the use of Imperio and Crucio, though. The ethical path was laid out for us during the first rise of Voldemort. While other aurors used the Unforgiveables, Moody took the high road and didn't. In the escape from Privet Drive, the Order kept to noble behaviour. Why abandon their ethics at the end when they aren't even in battle yet?

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sunsethill
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USA
653 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2007 :  11:25:39  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Krabat
What about Harry hurling around all those Unforgivables? I read in some interview that JKR wanted to show that Harry is only human, and one of his weaknesses is his anger. One conflict could/should have been Harry realising that he is capable of doing wrong/evil. I always thought he would have to deal with the realisation that he acted the same as Snape in HBP when he fed DD the potion in the cave, although he of course couldn't be sure that the potion would kill DD. Still, even the words JKR used to describe Harry's feelings in that moment were the same as she used to describe Snape on the tower. But Harry thinks of himself as the ggod and of Snape as the bad guy.

Yes, this bothered me quite a lot, Krabat. As I've said before, Rowling seemed to think she needed to bludger us with her themes in this book, even though they had been well-established already. We knew Ron had a temper, we knew Voldemort killed indescriminately, etc. We already knew Harry wasn't perfect and had a temper. She did not have to use Harry throwing an unforgiveable to prove he had a temper.
quote:
Harry's "oh that's what Bella meant" bothered me-- especially since it was the only reaction we got to his using an Unforgiveable. Heck, even McGonagall didn't bat an eyelash at it. I guess we ought to be happy that we never saw any of the "good" guys (Snape excepted) use Avada Kedavra.
This just makes it a little harder to accept the use of Imperio and Crucio, though. The ethical path was laid out for us during the first rise of Voldemort. While other aurors used the Unforgiveables, Moody took the high road and didn't. In the escape from Privet Drive, the Order kept to noble behaviour. Why abandon their ethics at the end when they aren't even in battle yet?
The moral amibiguity of having Harry use two of the three unforgiveables, with no reaction or negative consequences just didn't fit, as you point out Siobhan, with all that had been set up before in the series. If the Unforgiveables were actually the Three Good Suggestions (as per the old joke of what's his name on Nightline about the Ten Commandments) why call them that? Why give us Moody's example, as you point out? And Harry almost seems proud of himself for using Crucio against Carrow, when we "know" the Carrows are evil because they are teaching children to cast it on each other.

And yet, Rowling went to great pains to have Harry never actually kill anyone in this book. It doesn't make any ethical sense given what we know from this world previously.

quote:
Throughout the series Harry worries about his similarities to Voldemort, but in DH he has no problems at all using the Unforgivables in any setting. Shouldn't he have a problem with that, at least after using them successfully for the first time? I would think that a realistic conflict would have been to deal with the fact that there is not only right and wrong, that people including oneself are not purely evil or good, and perhaps even the ethical conflict of what means are justified by the end. And again Snape could have been used to illustrate every facet of that conflict.
This was a theme that most definitely wasn't carried through, Krabat, and that needed to be, given how often it came up. Basically, all self-reflection that Harry has done previously stops in this book--or we certainly don't see any evidence of it. So many themes from HBP never get resolution. We never see how Harry's similarity to Snape affects the plot. We spend the whole 6th book worrying because Harry can't cast spells non-verbally, but heck--by DH it's no big deal. Harry still can't close his mind, but now that's a virtue--after it got his godfather killed. Super!Hermione will be there to save the day and rescue Harry from his unwillingness to work really hard to prepare. Harry's one great skill--flying--makes no appearance except on a dragon, and all three do that.

quote:
quote:
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And all the great scene ideas are making me tear up. I can't wait for these stories.
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And they will get written. Thank goodness for fanfiction.
I remember just before DH came out that many people were worrying that it would kill HP fanfiction. Now I think the actual ending is so unsatisfying to so many rabid fans that fanfiction will go on for a long time. Yippee!

I'm still thinking, Theo, on what would have been needed to make Harry's story better. Get back to you later on that after my subconscious has a chance to work.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2007 :  11:31:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"You fiend! You spat on my teacher! Crucio!"

Definitely not one of Harry's finer moments, nor one of JKR's. It's almost laughable, really. Did JKR forget that she'd set up Dark Magic in general and the Unforgivables in particular to be serious stuff that a good wizard only uses under duress, if then? How do Harry and McGonagall tossing around UCs fit with Lily berating Severus for being fascinated by the Dark Arts?

Which ends justify which means was a question begging to be addressed in DH and Harry struggling with his own Dark impulses would have been a perfect medium in which to examine good/evil, right/wrong, necessary evil, choices in the face of evil, etc.

The corollary to this would be Harry's personal struggle with hate/anger vs. love/forgiveness. That we never saw this may be my biggest disappointment in DH. With all the harping about love and Harry's determination to hate Snape, it seemed inevitable that Harry would come to a crisis point where he would have to choose love over hate, forbearance over vengeance, forgiveness over blame. And yet, it never comes. We blink and Harry is extolling Snape's virtues and naming his son after the man, but we never get to see the transformation. Like with the UC's JKR doesn't bother to have Harry think about the ramifications of his actions and beliefs. One minute he hates Snape's guts and the next he doesn't.

Sure, we longtime fans can fill in all the backstory and internal dialogue ourselves, but we shouldn't have to. That's the author's job. It's almost as if JKR thought, "Well, they've already figured all that out, so I won't bother writing it."

EDITED TO ADD:

Speaking of super!Hermione, I think this was a big disservice to Harry. Harry wasn't challenged to come up with a plan and make it work because Hermione was there to do it for him while toting around everything including the kitchen sink in her purse! As with finding the Horcruxes, there just wasn't a lot of challenge.

And I don't mean that there wasn't danger. There was and Harry had the chance to be brave and brave again and brave some more. But you know what? Brave gets tedious when it isn't interspersed with character growth. We KNOW Harry's brave. We KNOW he'd give his life to defeat LV. I wanted to see Harry move beyond a two-demensional hero and casting the UC's without care because he has anger issues doesn't do it. Neither does the decision to go after the Horcruxes instead of the Hallows - as if the latter would have ever seriously tempted Harry! Our hero making the heroic choice - what a shock!

I wanted to see Harry make tough choices. I wanted to see him confront the darkness in himself for once. That's the essence of growing up and Harry never does. For all his nobility and selfless bravery, he remains a teenager with no real self-awareness.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 08/31/2007 12:02:24
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  21:08:10  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
How do Harry and McGonagall tossing around UCs fit with Lily berating Severus for being fascinated by the Dark Arts?

Good question, Theo. What are Dark Arts now if Imperius and Crucio don't count? As you say, this issue isn't dealt with where we can see it. Jo may know in her mind, but it is now unclear to the reader because of Harry's consequence-free actions in DH.

I agree completely that we don't feel that Harry grew any in DH. The Harry we had in PS/SS is basically the Harry we have in DH only with a little more magical finesse. We can't see why he would name his son for Severus Snape and I found I couldn't really believe that he ended up a super Auror. I mean, it was Hermione that saved his bacon again and again magically, and then he didn't really have to defeat Voldie. He just had to let him defeat himself. And I actually kind of liked that ending, but I think it would have made more sense for Rowling's Harry to decide he wanted to play professional Quidditch than be an Auror.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2007 :  13:06:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought I'd post htis link here, too (it is also in Random responses).
http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/07/the_deathly_hallows.phpThe reviewer may have hit on something when he mentions the adult response as being different from the kids, though I disagree that we read too much into the series. It was all there-- not a figment of our collective imaginations. Rowling simply failed to follow through, IMO.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2007 :  16:28:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Super!Auror Harry was a bit of a stretch in DH, but I suppose his reputation alone would have attracted the best people available to the service. Harry, being forever noble and heroic, would never have considered a different occupation.

Siobhan, I'm glad to know that not every review of DH has been a glowing homage. What bothers me about the review and the comments is not the suggestion that adults might have read too much into the series, but the implication that teens are too stupid to see the plot holes and too unsophistocated to benefit from better writing. "It's lousy from an adult perspective, but great for teens," is not a philosophy I can agree with.

A children's book is not a poorly written or dumbed-down adult book. What separates the two genres is content. An adult book deals with adult characters and adult themes - divorcing a spouse, for instance - that adolescents have no experience with and wouldn't be able to relate to. A children's/young adult's book deals with adolescent characters and themes that kids CAN relate to.

But both types of books must be equally well written. Laborious deus ex machina and unrealized character potential have no place in either. Teens aren't stupid. In fact they are highly atuned to emotions, relationships, social/peer pressure and self-doubt. They would have been engrossed by a Harry forced to make truly tough choices. They would have recognized the darker impulses tugging at him because those same impulses exist within them. How many fifteen-year-olds would want to forgive Snape? Seeing Harry actually struggle with the choice and finally put aside his pride to do so would have taught a generation of teens so much about themselves and about dealing with others.

Ingenious plot devices have a place in storytelling. They captivate and charm. For very young children, they make up the bulk of a story because little ones can't comprehend more. But for anyone over the age of eleven (and certainly anyone old enough to read about Harry groping Ginny), plot devices should play only a supporting role. They enliven a story and move the plot forward, but they aren't the story.

In DH, the convoluted workings of both the horcruxes and hallows overshadowed the characters. Harry spent the whole book simply reacting to what these items were and what they forced and/or allowed him to do. What real choice did he ever have to make? How did his relationship with anyone effect his choices or cause him to grow? The best stories are about characters, their relationships with each other and how these and external events cause them to change. We just didn't see much of this in DH.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/04/2007 17:03:54
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2007 :  17:13:29  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
A children's book is not a poorly written or dumbed-down adult book. What separates the two genres is content. An adult book deals with adult characters and adult themes - divorce, for instance - that adolescents have no experience with and wouldn't be able to relate to. A children's/young adult's book deals with adolescent characters and themes that kids CAN relate to....

In DH, the convoluted workings of both the horcruxes and hallows overshadowed the characters. Harry spent the whole book simply reacting to what these items were and what they forced and/or allowed him to do. What real choice did he ever have to make? How did his relationship with anyone effect his choices or cause him to grow? The best stories are about characters, their relationships with each other and how these and external events cause them to change. We just didn't see much of this in DH.

I agree completely about children's books. I spent most of my 20's and the early years of my children's lives reading all the great children's books that my mother didn't know about. She knew Dr. Seuss and then moved me straight to Dickens in 6th grade, with some Nancy Drew and Black Stallion in between. But a truly great children's book is equally appealing to an adult. And this would be especially true with HP because Rowling was working with so many themes that really know no age boundaries, and had her characters aging. If she had fulfilled her potential, DH could have been one of the greatest children's books ever written.

And I agree that Harry really had to make no choices in DH. They were all made for him by Dumbledore or Hermione. The main choice which was HIS was the choice to willingly die a sacrificial death--but that was a foregone conclusion. We get more drama in the Gospels with Christ's decision in the Garden of Gethsemene than we got out of Harry. Not that this was a flaw. Rowling had already settled that point of Harry's character previously. What she hadn't settled, as you so clearly point out, is his willingness to forgive and his ability to control his anger and not slip into darkness--and those issues were handled in a very superficial way, as if there really was no issue.

Instead, she manufactured a new decision that he needed to make--whether to trust Dumbledore and search for the horcruxes rather than the Hallows. This is actually a little strange, since it was Dumbledore who sent Hermione on a search for the Hallows. This choice would have never needed to be made if DD hadn't muddied up the waters. And again, I argue that deciding to trust Dumbledore shouldn't have been the decision. DD was her epitome of good. She had already set up the dramatic tension of whether Snape should be trusted--and then never used that.

I really wish I knew exactly what she thought she was accomplishing by making DD's character ambiguous to force a choice on Harry. We still could have learned that he wasn't perfect and that he had made errors in his youth. This would have just reassured Harry and allowed him to grow in his understanding of what it means to choose the good. We could have gotten the dramatic tension of Harry having to choose to do something Snape asked him to do and then learning it was the right decision. I guess at this point--as we look at all Rowling's plot options and what she had already set up previously--I'm just really confused by the decisions she made.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/04/2007 :  17:23:31  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

I thought I'd post htis link here, too (it is also in Random responses).
http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/07/the_deathly_hallows.phpThe reviewer may have hit on something when he mentions the adult response as being different from the kids, though I disagree that we read too much into the series. It was all there-- not a figment of our collective imaginations. Rowling simply failed to follow through, IMO.

Thanks for the link, Siobhan. It really says a lot that we have been--in less space, of course. One thing it touched on that I have been feeling in the back of my mind is that I really did hate that the last year didn't take place at Hogwarts. I realize I REALLY missed it--and if his comments are correct--Rowling might have done better to set the final story at Hogwarts with short forays out to look for the Horcruxes. Hey, that might make a good topic for discussion on another thread.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2007 :  14:03:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

... a truly great children's book is equally appealing to an adult. And this would be especially true with HP because Rowling was working with so many themes that really know no age boundaries, and had her characters aging. If she had fulfilled her potential, DH could have been one of the greatest children's books ever written.
This is what saddens me so much, the loss of what might have been.

quote:
Instead, she manufactured a new decision that he needed to make--whether to trust Dumbledore and search for the horcruxes rather than the Hallows. This is actually a little strange, since it was Dumbledore who sent Hermione on a search for the Hallows. This choice would have never needed to be made if DD hadn't muddied up the waters. And again, I argue that deciding to trust Dumbledore shouldn't have been the decision. DD was her epitome of good. She had already set up the dramatic tension of whether Snape should be trusted--and then never used that.

I really wish I knew exactly what she thought she was accomplishing by making DD's character ambiguous to force a choice on Harry. We still could have learned that he wasn't perfect and that he had made errors in his youth. This would have just reassured Harry and allowed him to grow in his understanding of what it means to choose the good. We could have gotten the dramatic tension of Harry having to choose to do something Snape asked him to do and then learning it was the right decision. I guess at this point--as we look at all Rowling's plot options and what she had already set up previously--I'm just really confused by the decisions she made.
Yes, I'm still shaking my head at this and you make an excellent point about DD and the DHs. Obviously, DD intended the trio to go after both the DHs and the horcruxes. Why else shove Hermione down the road leading to the former? So either way, Harry is doing what DD intended. His real choice is in not being tempted by the DHs - and that was never a realistic temptation.

quote:
I really did hate that the last year didn't take place at Hogwarts. I realize I REALLY missed it--and if his comments are correct--Rowling might have done better to set the final story at Hogwarts with short forays out to look for the Horcruxes. Hey, that might make a good topic for discussion on another thread.
It's very problematic to take the boarding school out of a boarding school series. Alas, once DD was cactus, Harry couldn't stay at Hogwarts, and shoving Harry out of the nest was clearly JKR's intention. But this changes the entire feel of the story and JKR should have taken pains to make this transition smoother.

We were 250 pages into OotP before Harry set foot at Hogwarts, with more time away at Christmas and fighting at the DoM, so Harry doesn't have to be chained to the school. He could have contacted the DA early on and snuck into the school repeatedly in order to meet with them, research horcruxes, steal Potions supplies, whatever. Then too, I'm not sure we needed Harry to be at Hogwarts as much as we needed to be there. Instead of trudging after the trio on every moment of that endless camping trip, JKR could have interspersed the non-action with scenes at Hogwarts. It would have been great fun to watch Neville, Ginny and Luna plotting with the DA while trying to avoid Snape, swooping about in his usual bat-like fashion. And this could have provided some much needed comedy relief as well as the warm feeling of being home at Hogwarts. This would have especially helped since so much had changed at school that year and we missed seeing any of it.

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Krabat
Giddy

Germany
40 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2007 :  05:01:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I actually liked the idea of the DHs, although, of course, not the way they were used in the story, and all the inconsistencies regarding the elder wand and the cloak. What I did like was the way they link the wizarding world via the fairy tales to the muggleworld. I always enjoyed it when that happened in the books. But that is only a small part of the appeal.

Why did I like the idea? It could have been used to underline a lot of the conflicts and topics in the book. We have three very powerful items and if you bring them together you somehow are able to master death. This is exactly what Voldemort wanted (so why wasn't he after all the hallows from the moment he heard of them?). The Horcruxes could have been a safety net, but the hallows would have a much greater attraction. Not only would they protect from death, but each one has tremendous power on its own. Yes, Voldemort should have been obsessed by them. And Harry? It would have been easy to understand why Harry could also get obsessed, for superficially different reasons. He obviously cherishes his cloak. The stone would have allowed him to get guidance from his parents (besides the Mirror of Erised effect) and the wand could be used to defeat Voldemort (that should appeal to a child that has been told he has to kill one of the most powerful wizards in existence). And being the master of death perhaps you are not only able to protect yourself, but also to make sure no one close to you has to die. This would adress Harry's greatest fear. So, yes, I can see Harry doing almost everything to obtain the DHs. That could have been a great plot device, because at some point Harry would have to recognize that he is behaving the same way as Voldemort. And we are back to our earlier posts regarding conflict and ethics. Harry has to realize that his motives might be more honourable than Voldemorts but never the less he is walking the same path (DD's history would also serve a purpose here). He has to realize that there may be power that is not supposed to be used, no matter how much it costs to let it go, and so on. The Horcruxes could never hold any fascination for Harry, they stress the difference between Harry and Voldemort, but the Hallows...

So, yes, I liked the idea of the DHs, but to use them in a way I would have liked to read about they would have to have been a story thread that winds through all the books, finding culmination and resolution in the last one.

I just realized I'm a bit off topic here, but the matter didn't want to leave me alone.
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
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Posted - 09/06/2007 :  10:43:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure it's posible to be off topic at this point.

quote:
Harry has to realize that his motives might be more honourable than Voldemorts but never the less he is walking the same path
Exactly! This would also have mirrored the Umbridge storyline from OotP. Her motives (she thought) were honourable and worthy, but she did terrible things and was just as bad as the DE's.

The only reason I could think of at the time for why Voldemort didn't go after all the Hallows, was his usual short sightedness. He never did go in for deep research unless he had to. He didn't go after the prophecy until book 5, when he should have been attempting to hear the thing for himself all along.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2007 :  11:27:01  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
We were 250 pages into OotP before Harry set foot at Hogwarts, with more time away at Christmas and fighting at the DoM, so Harry doesn't have to be chained to the school. He could have contacted the DA early on and snuck into the school repeatedly in order to meet with them, research horcruxes, steal Potions supplies, whatever. Then too, I'm not sure we needed Harry to be at Hogwarts as much as we needed to be there. Instead of trudging after the trio on every moment of that endless camping trip, JKR could have interspersed the non-action with scenes at Hogwarts. It would have been great fun to watch Neville, Ginny and Luna plotting with the DA while trying to avoid Snape, swooping about in his usual bat-like fashion. And this could have provided some much needed comedy relief as well as the warm feeling of being home at Hogwarts. This would have especially helped since so much had changed at school that year and we missed seeing any of it.

Yes, Snape's ambiguity could have been emphasized even more if we could have seen inside Hogwarts during the year. It would have been fun.

I finally got a chance to quiz my children on DH. My 23 yo daughter just got a chance to read the book and she's not a Snapeaholic like I am. She was very upset about Remus and Tonks' deaths and the fact that the way we find out it is a casual mention that their bodies lie next to Fred's. She felt there were way too many deaths, and that those deaths were unnecessary--and I think she will be pretty leery about letting her two little ones start the series when they are older because the deaths depressed her at 23 years of age.

My 14 yo Potterholic son says that he may only read DH once more to kind of firm up some points in his mind, but he found both HBP and DH tedious partly because there wasn't enough boarding school stuff in both of them (too much pensieve stuff, he felt, in HBP). He really missed Hogwarts. He had trouble expressing exactly what he didn't like in DH, but I think it boils down to he felt that Rowling was just ticking off plot points in her mind as she wrote. Sort of like "There, I dealt with that. Now I'll deal with this next issue." I think he noticed the lack of literary care. He hated the Neverending Campout, and wanted more epilogue to find out what happened with the Ministry and Hogwarts after the battle.

I asked if he followed the whole wand thing, and I don't think he had worried that much about how it was structured--he just accepted it--but he did say something interesting. He didn't believe that the final battle should have hinged on the ownership of the Elder Wand. He felt that it should have depended on something else such as Harry being a horcrux. Obviously, he had forgotten that Harry wasn't one anymore at that point, but I think what he was feeling was what Theo has been saying--the final battle should have depended on something we already had in place before DH.

I personally think that Rowling assumed she had "dealt with the plot point of Love" by having Harry's sacrifice of love protect everyone else. This could have been satifying if she had actually SHOWN us more of this rather than just have Harry talk about it. So, as my son instinctively perceived, the final victory was just a little too contrived with stuff that just showed up out of the blue at the end.

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Theowyn
Looney

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Posted - 09/06/2007 :  14:34:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Krabat, I LOVE your take on the DH's. That would have made a wonderful plot indeed, but sadly all we got was a vestigial version of it.

SH, it seems as though your kids had the same reactions to DH that we did. What I find especially fascinating is that your son senses the problems in the plot even though he can't quite articulate them. This is really the best refutation of the argument that some of us fans simply over-analyze the books - as if we're complaining just to hear ourselves talk. It's not ivory-tower ennui driving the criticisms, but rather a gut feeling that something's wrong.

You're son is quite right about the final battle and the EW. That the defeat of LV came down to a matter of luck is anticlimatic and doesn't provide much of a moral to the story. Shouldn't LV's defeat have been the moment for JKR to clearly demonstrate her main moral theme? Love conquers hate or choice defines us? Instead she addressed these in the forest and left LV's defeat as a weak postscript. It almost makes me wonder if she really did intend to kill off Harry originally and then decided that she couldn't and tacked on his revival and final battle instead.

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Krabat
Giddy

Germany
40 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2007 :  03:25:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a short post to share a smile.

I just found a livejournal community for DH rewrites:
http://community.livejournal.com/dh_rewrite/

It will probably attract mostly slashers, I don't expect great gen fic to come out of it. But I really liked the prompt:

24) Harry, Ron, and Hermione are mugged shortly after they get to London, and Hermione’s bag is stolen.


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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2007 :  13:26:42  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Shouldn't LV's defeat have been the moment for JKR to clearly demonstrate her main moral theme? Love conquers hate or choice defines us? Instead she addressed these in the forest and left LV's defeat as a weak postscript. It almost makes me wonder if she really did intend to kill off Harry originally and then decided that she couldn't and tacked on his revival and final battle instead.

Now that's an intriguing thought. Someone on another thread mentioned that they thought she meant to kill Hagrid and then couldn't do it. But the ending does make more sense if she had originally planned for Harry's sacrificial death to protect everyone, Neville kill Nagini, and then someone else off Voldemort.

The only reason I would doubt that interpretation is because Harry's story is so Christ-like that I figure she planned the resurrection all along. But surely if she had planned the EW thing, she would have done more of a setup in previous books. Maybe she planned for Voldie's original wand to act up like it did at the beginning of the book and backfire, and then decided she needed "more" plot and dragged in the cloak and ring and EW.

quote:
24) Harry, Ron, and Hermione are mugged shortly after they get to London, and Hermione’s bag is stolen.

Oh, Krabat. It's a good thing I wasn't drinking anything. Although, I must confess a secret liking for Hermione's bag. It was one of those neat magical devices that Jo does so well. And I could believe Hermione would think of that and be the "prepared" one. What I didn't like was her saving everyone's bacon through the whole book. Basically Harry just had to tag along and be wholesome. I think I like the dragon scene so much because it feels like the old Harry from previous books.

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Siobhan
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Posted - 09/07/2007 :  16:29:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I want one of those bags... small, lightweight, but holds everything.
I've been paring down what I carry in my purse, but there's always something I'm missing. Somehow I think it is going to come down to doing without-- either that or wear deep pockets.

In mentally writing a letter to JKR today, I've been thinking about the upshot of Harry and McGonagall using the Unforgiveables. The way it is presented in DH, it seems to be OK to do horrible things, ie torture and mind control, if you are a good guy (let's not extrapolate that to RL *cough*). Barty Crouch Sr. reinforced this idea. OK. Then why have Moody, who is a much more admirable character than Crouch, be morally against using the Unforgiveables? Why go through the whole Umbridge storyline if the end is to agree with her? I must say, I'm deeply disappointed by this scenario. Harry did have to learn to use the curses, if only to make it a choice not to use them (as with sectumsempra). For McGonagall to act as she did was just plain inconsistent within the ethical framework of these books. She should have been shocked, or have rebuked Harry somehow, rather than joined in.

OK, rant over.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/07/2007 :  16:44:07  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan
In mentally writing a letter to JKR today, I've been thinking about the upshot of Harry and McGonagall using the Unforgiveables. The way it is presented in DH, it seems to be OK to do horrible things, ie torture and mind control, if you are a good guy (let's not extrapolate that to RL *cough*). Barty Crouch Sr. reinforced this idea. OK. Then why have Moody, who is a much more admirable character than Crouch, be morally against using the Unforgiveables? Why go through the whole Umbridge storyline if the end is to agree with her? I must say, I'm deeply disappointed by this scenario. Harry did have to learn to use the curses, if only to make it a choice not to use them (as with sectumsempra). For McGonagall to act as she did was just plain inconsistent within the ethical framework of these books. She should have been shocked, or have rebuked Harry somehow, rather than joined in.

OK, rant over.

Amen to your rant, Siobhan. Harry can use an Unforgiveable and get acclaim from his teacher because he's a "good guy", but Snape can't get mad and be merely intrigued with the Dark Arts without losing his only friend in the world. The moral messages sure got messed up in this book.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 09/09/2007 :  23:38:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Shouldn't LV's defeat have been the moment for JKR to clearly demonstrate her main moral theme? Love conquers hate or choice defines us? Instead she addressed these in the forest and left LV's defeat as a weak postscript. It almost makes me wonder if she really did intend to kill off Harry originally and then decided that she couldn't and tacked on his revival and final battle instead.

Now that's an intriguing thought. Someone on another thread mentioned that they thought she meant to kill Hagrid and then couldn't do it. But the ending does make more sense if she had originally planned for Harry's sacrificial death to protect everyone, Neville kill Nagini, and then someone else off Voldemort.

The only reason I would doubt that interpretation is because Harry's story is so Christ-like that I figure she planned the resurrection all along. But surely if she had planned the EW thing, she would have done more of a setup in previous books. Maybe she planned for Voldie's original wand to act up like it did at the beginning of the book and backfire, and then decided she needed "more" plot and dragged in the cloak and ring and EW.
I agree that the resurrection thing was likely planned from the beginning, but the means seems contrived. The EW being used against it's true master backfired on LV and killed him in the Great Hall. Why not just have this occur at the time of Harry's sacrifice? All JKR would have had to do was kill off Nagini first - hardly an insurmountable task. Couldn't Snape have killed the stupid thing after it attacked him? Having Harry's sacrifice destroy LV would have made a lot more thematic sense then having two confrontations.

quote:
[quote]24) Harry, Ron, and Hermione are mugged shortly after they get to London, and Hermione’s bag is stolen.
I love it! Though, I agree that I'd like to have one of those bags.

And I will second the amen to Siobhan's rant.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/09/2007 23:39:13
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Krabat
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Posted - 09/11/2007 :  08:54:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Again I'm leaving the current topic since I have nothing to add. You put the finger on most of my misgivings concerning the solving of the Voldemort-Problem.

I just found a livejournal entry which pretty much sums up why I was so disappointed with the whole Snape/Lily plot (if you can call a string of memories a plot). It's at

http://hb-princess.livejournal.com/18718.html#cutid1

and here is a quote of the part that has me nodding in agreement:

quote:
The whole Snape wrap-up has left me with a VERY bad taste in my mouth. Not only was his life a dreary horror, but she threw it at us so fast and so late in the game that there was no...I dunno..."absorbing" it? It was like she just wanted to hit all the appropriate "okay, feel bad for him now" components as quickly as possible. Boom! Aw, he's poor - lookit the funny clothes. Boom! Aw, his parents fight all the time. Boom! Uh-oh, Sev's hanging with the wrong homies now. And on and on and on.

I guess I just don't like being manipulated. I don't want to be TOLD something is/was, I want to be SHOWN. If Severus Snape's driving motivation for all this sacrifice all these years has been Teh True Love, then I'd sort of like to SEE more than a slideshow of Sev/Lily, a friendship that apparently spanned years - I'd rather have one or two longer and truly emotionally moving/touching scenes than what we got.

And while we're on the subject...

OMG! Lily was supposedly Snape's best friend, and yet he has to steal a "Love, Lily" from someone else's letter as a souvenir? Hello? How pathetic can she make him?!? *grumbles*


I agree in particular with the notion of JKR rather telling us what we should feel rather than making us feel that way. What do you think?
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Siobhan
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Posted - 09/11/2007 :  10:36:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree wholeheartedly. It was JKR's consummate Dumbledore moment. It felt like because so many readers had guessed at the relationship there, that she didn't feel it necessary to flesh it in and make it real for us or Harry. Sure he experienced the memories, but he was in the middle of a battle! I would have been tapping my foot and wondering what the heck I was doing wasting time with the pensieve (as intriguing as the memories may have been) instead of concentrating on saving all my friends and Hogwarts by offing Voldemort.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 09/11/2007 :  11:47:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

I agree wholeheartedly. It was JKR's consummate Dumbledore moment. It felt like because so many readers had guessed at the relationship there, that she didn't feel it necessary to flesh it in and make it real for us or Harry.
I agree too and I particularly agree with the livejournal post regarding Snape stealing Lily's letter to Sirius. That really was pathetic. Doesn't he have ANY of his own mementos of Lily? Did she never give him a Christmas card signed 'love Lily' that we could have seen him weeping over instead?

Regarding what you say here, Siobhan, we've touched on this before - the sense that JKR breezed by Snape's story because we already knew it. I find this incredibly sad, not only for us, but for JKR herself. Did she really believe we wouldn't guess the truth about Snape? Was she so disappointed in having her big plot-twist discovered that she lost interest in actually writing it? If so, that's tragic. Because while it's fun to catch a reader off guard with an emotional punch, it's just as satisfying to face a reader who's prepared and knows what's coming - and to still land that same punch.

I know from experience that surprising people with a plot-twist is great. I loved writing Ryan back in HPEW for exactly this reason. But it can be every bit as enjoyable to write something that people can guess is coming. It's simply a different kind of challenge. In HPCS, I based the entire emotional conflict between Harry and Snape on a secret that literally wasn't going to surprise one single reader. Did it matter? When we got to the big revelation that Snape had told the prophecy to LV, did anyone think, "Gee, I knew that. How anticlimatic!"? No. Because HARRY was stunned. This is what JKR seems to have forgotten. The story is about the characters, not the fans.

Readers will follow the characters' emotional cues. Readers don't need to be surprised as long as the characters are - convincingly so. Not relying on surprising the reader also makes for a more enduring story. A tale that depends on the reader being surprised (as opposed to the characters) can really only be read once. It will lose a lot on subsequent readings. But a story that can wring laughter and tears from readers when they know what's coming - that's a story that can be read again and again.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/11/2007 13:07:28
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Eeyore
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Posted - 09/11/2007 :  13:50:29  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
*sneaks back in for a moment*

I've stayed out of this conversation because I really liked Deathly Hallows, all of it. I have no complaints, I wasn't disappointed and that means that I would only be defending why I like it, since it seems that most of you don't. When I finished the book I felt so very satisfied, and one of the first things I realized was that I no longer feel the need to defend HP to the Harry Haters, nor do I feel the need to defend my contentment with the end of the story to those who didn't like it. I have felt all along, well, from the end of POA anyway, that the books have many Christian themes and my only fear for DH was that Rowling would back off from it. But she didn't, and I'm happy.

But I've been reading some of your comments, and I do have a few things to add--from an admittedly different perspective.

In one of the post DH interviews, someone asked or commented that they were glad she didn't kill off Hagrid. And she said she had never intended to kill Hagrid, because she always knew that it would be Hagrid carrying Harry out of the forest. That tells us two thing, IMO. So she had plotted the end of the books a long time ago, and that she didn't want Harry to die in the forest. That didn't fit with the ending she envisioned and wanted to tell.

By having Voldemort die in the Great Hall instead of in the Forest, it was then evident to all that he was not as all powerful as he had always tried to tell everyone. The only witnesses to his demise, had it happened in the Forest, would have been Harry and Hagrid for the good side, and a bunch of Death Eaters, who then could have conveniently escaped.

The public confrontation in the Great Hall was the echo of the passage in HBP when Harry finally realizes what Dumbledore has been telling him; he has a choice and is not fighting Voldemort because of the Prophecy but because it's the right thing to do; it's the difference between walking into the arena to face Voldemort rather than being dragged in--and that it makes all the difference. Then we see Harry do exactly that. In both the Forest scene, after his walk with his parents and Sirius and Remus, he willingly sacrifices himself. By doing that, the soul fragment that is in Harry is destroyed, with Voldemort not realizing what has happened to his power. He has been robbed of his superior strength, which we see in the way the spells he casts no longer have the full effect.

When they finally face off in the Great Hall, Harry knows that his sacrifice has made it possible for him to defeat, truly defeat, Voldemort, but he takes the time to make sure Voldemort is aware of all his mistakes, including the biggest one, that he thought Snape was his.

And that gets back to "The Prince's Tale". I loved that chapter. At the end of HBP, I was so convinced that Snape was not evil, and that something would happen to reveal that to Harry. So at the beginning of DH when we see Snape watch Burbage murdered, and then Snape is part of the attack on Harry and the decoys, I started to question my convictions about him. The closer it got to the end, and especially after Snape fled the castle, I began to think I was wrong and that JKR had decided to make him evil after all.

Snape's death, horrible as it was, did not leave me angry with Jo of disappointed. It was the horror of it, I think, that led Harry to go to Snape, to not be vindictive (which he always said he would be), and to bend over him. Snape, in being summoned to Voldemort, knew that the time had come that he had to tell Harry everything, as he had promised Dumbledore, and gave all those memories to Harry.

Yes, they were quick and like a slide show of Snape's life. But I think the overwhelming amount of information that Harry saw in those poignant memories was the very thing that convinced him of Snape's true loyalty to Dumbledore. Would Harry really, given all the times he'd discounted the single efforts of Snape to protect him, have believed anything that Snape might have said to him if they'd had an opportunity to talk? I don't think so--I always liked the idea that the two of them might have some sort of friendship or at least a cordial relationship, but it would be out of character for both of them. Harry never wanted to listen to Snape or take any advice from him (which was the brilliance of Harry using the Prince's old potion book)--that was what made the Occlumency lessons such a disaster. And he still thought he was angry with Snape. But seeing how horrifically Snape, who was supposed to be Voldemort's favorite, was brutally killed and then seeing the memories, was the only thing that would have convinced Harry of Snape's loyalty, while also showing him the path he must take.

Seeing all those memories quickly and having Harry accept them, in the midst of the battle, make the point even better that Harry has a pure heart. When confronted with the truth, through memories that he would understand hadn't been tampered with, was the best way for Harry to get it. In a way, it's similar to the way he accepted the truth about Sirius in the Shrieking Shack--Lupin and Sirius fairly bombarded Harry with information about their past, and Harry immediately accepted that Sirius was there to save him, not to kill him. So we did have the set-up in Harry's character to make that sort of judgement quickly--he's not one to sit and ponder for days over something. Perhaps that's the reason he was such a good seeker--assess the situation and act quickly, without the opportunity to discuss it to death with everyone else. Our Harry thinks on his feet, and in the instances when he does that, he usually makes the right decision (going to the Ministry being the one huge goof on Harry's part).

I didn't see the scene with Snape finding Lily's signature and photo as the only thing he might have had from her. I'm not sure why they would have written any letters outside of school, for one thing--they apparently lived close enough that they got together, so there might have been no need for writing notes. But, mainly, it seemed that Snape went back to Grimmauld Place searching for something, but I don't think it was to find something from Lily. I doubt that he knew Sirius had that particular letter, and he probably was never in Sirius's room to see the photo. But it would have been important to remove anything incriminating to the Order before the other Death Eaters showed up. In searching, he stumbled on the letter and the photo and took her picture and signature--it was a beautiful moment. And in a very short scene, we (and Harry) are told that Severus still loves Lily.

And I really do want Hermione's little bag, beaded, no less. Sounds charming and ever so useful.

****

Sorry to just pop in and leave, but I wanted to add my two knuts worth, and I'll probably not blather on about my views of DH here, as they are so very different from all of yours. But it's been fun.

TTFN

Eeyore

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Siobhan
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Posted - 09/11/2007 :  16:36:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi there!!! Thanks for popping in-- and don't feel intimidated to come back, please! We did like parts of the book!
quote:
At the end of HBP, I was so convinced that Snape was not evil, and that something would happen to reveal that to Harry. So at the beginning of DH when we see Snape watch Burbage murdered, and then Snape is part of the attack on Harry and the decoys, I started to question my convictions about him. The closer it got to the end, and especially after Snape fled the castle, I began to think I was wrong and that JKR had decided to make him evil after all.
See, doubt regarding Snape never occurred to me. When the Order discussed the plan for the decoys, they said Mundungus (who so very suspiciously tried to get out of the mission altogether) had suggested the whole thing. I knew that the plan came from Snape. I never for an instant believed that Dung was clever enough and honorable enough to come up with that on someone else's behalf (he's great at squirming out of scrapes where it's his neck on the line, but not the kind to plan decoys, etc.). Combined with the light duty detention the DA members received after breaking into Headmaster Snape's office and the belief was cemented (he was nearly livid about the idea of someone stealing from his potions closet). I was also certain that Snape was the one to cast the silver doe patronus. It was simply a matter of time before his part was fully explained.

I'm thinking Snape just happened upon the letter-- that he was not looking for it. He was searching for something there, but not that. Finding it would have been a shock. So the letter thing didn't bother me.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 09/11/2007 :  16:54:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*Hugs Eeyore*

Eeyore, it's wonderful to hear from you! You must stop in for tea at the teashop and have you checked out Library Lunacy?

I'm truly glad that you enjoyed the book. I know many people did. Some of us simply wish that it had been better written and hadn't fudged on some of the moral elements. Harry gleefully using Cruciatus without remorse or consequence irks.

One comment I do think is worth making. I agree that Harry and Snape would never have been friends and I don't think Snape was ever fated to survive the final battle. But you ask, "Would Harry really, given all the times he'd discounted the single efforts of Snape to protect him, have believed anything that Snape might have said to him if they'd had an opportunity to talk?" This implies that there are only two possibilities: Harry sees the slideshow of memories, or Snape gets him alone and tries to convince him of the truth with words. Clearly the latter would never work, but that's hardly the only option. There are other ways that Snape's loyalty could have been proven to Harry that would have allowed us to actually see and experience Harry's shift in emotions. We get that with Sirius in PoA. We see Harry venting his fury at Sirius and resisting the profession of innocense. But Harry is fair and he listens to Sirius and Remus. He asks questions and slowly, almost against his will, he realizes that he was wrong. The moment when Harry looks at Sirius and nods his understanding that Sirius is telling the truth is one of the most memorable in canon. It is entirely possible for us to have had a similar confrontation between Harry and Snape.

As to the letter, yes, it was a beautiful moment, but I just find Snape's presense at 12GP and his ransacking of Sirius's room to be highly unlikely. What on earth was he looking for? No DE could have set foot in the house - the trio spent weeks there, hiding out and the DEs couldn't find them. And while Snape may not think highly of his fellow OotP members, surely he doesn't think them such complete incompetents that he must take it upon himself to dispose of their secrets. Certainly, one or two of the others might think to do this. Of course the whole SK business is such a wreck in DH that I suppose there's no real point in speculating about Snape's presence at 12GP. Who knows? Maybe he WAS looking for a momento from Lily.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/12/2007 00:50:17
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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/11/2007 :  18:15:05  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan
See, doubt regarding Snape never occurred to me. When the Order discussed the plan for the decoys, they said Mundungus (who so very suspiciously tried to get out of the mission altogether) had suggested the whole thing. I knew that the plan came from Snape. I never for an instant believed that Dung was clever enough and honorable enough to come up with that on someone else's behalf (he's great at squirming out of scrapes where it's his neck on the line, but not the kind to plan decoys, etc.). Combined with the light duty detention the DA members received after breaking into Headmaster Snape's office and the belief was cemented (he was nearly livid about the idea of someone stealing from his potions closet). I was also certain that Snape was the one to cast the silver doe patronus. It was simply a matter of time before his part was fully explained.

You are so good, Siobhan. I didn't pick up on the Mundungus thing, but I did pick up on the light detention in the forest with Hagrid. I also knew that Snape would need to continue to play his role, but I was a little concerned I had misread things until that detention was mentioned. That's when I knew Snape was still on the side of good, Eeyore. So I guess I didn't approach the Prince's Tale chapter with as much relief as you felt.

quote:
As to the letter, yes, it was a beautiful moment, but I just find Snape's presense at 12GP and his ransacking of Sirius's room to be highly unlikely. What on earth was he looking for?
I never did really figure out what the whole "traps in 12GP and Snape getting in" point was. I think the confusion of the whole secret keeper thing kept me from following that, but I agree that Snape's memory of finding the letter was to show us that he STILL loved her. Good point on that, Eeyore. It also didn't bother me, because I figured by this point in the story, poor Severus had to have been a mess emotionally. Actually, I think a good case can be made for the fact that he's a pretty emotional guy--he's just learned to hide it really well.

As you mention, Eeyore, I too am glad that Rowling didn't back off her Christian imagery--which really is a poke in the eye to so many people who were complaining about the books without reading them. The Christian symbolism and themes may be more obvious than in C.S. Lewis' books. I think that may also be the reason that I am somewhat frustrated with the book. It was good--but I think it missed being great because she didn't take enough care with the parts that hadn't been planned out since PS/SS. And those were, many times, the parts that brought people like me to adore the books. I trusted her to do right by Harry (although as Theo says, the Cruciatus thing really bothers me), but I wish she had done as well with other aspects of the plot and characterization.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 09/12/2007 :  01:23:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't pick up on Mundungus either, but I never doubted Snape because I'd read the chapter titles ahead of time and knew that the Silver Doe had to be Snape's Patronus, so I was reassured before I ever got the book. I did pick up on the light detention in the forest with Hagrid, though.

quote:
quote:
As to the letter, yes, it was a beautiful moment, but I just find Snape's presense at 12GP and his ransacking of Sirius's room to be highly unlikely. What on earth was he looking for?
I never did really figure out what the whole "traps in 12GP and Snape getting in" point was. I think the confusion of the whole secret keeper thing kept me from following that, but I agree that Snape's memory of finding the letter was to show us that he STILL loved her. Good point on that, Eeyore. It also didn't bother me, because I figured by this point in the story, poor Severus had to have been a mess emotionally. Actually, I think a good case can be made for the fact that he's a pretty emotional guy--he's just learned to hide it really well.
I agree. Snape is extremely emotional - passionate even, I would say. He has learned to hide his feelings, but his trip to 12GP must have occurred almost immediately after he killed DD, so he has to have been a complete wreck and then to find Lily's letter - the only two people who had ever believed in him and he killed them both. It doesn't get any worse than that. What astonishes me is that he was actually able to pick himself up and go on as utterly alone as he was.

I think what bothers me about this scene is that I can't separate it from thoughts of the SK mess. I know that many people don't care about such things, but blatant logical contradictions really do ruin a story for me. As you say, SH, the the whole "traps in 12GP and Snape getting in" mini-plot was never explained and didn't seem to have any point. On top of that, it made no logical sense.

Last night I was reading the part where the trio are forced to flee 12GP because Hermione inadvertently Apparated a DE to the doorstep. So why couldn't Snape Apparate one of his DE buddies to the doorstep to the same effect? The wards don't activate until you're halfway into the hall, after all. Then too, he could have just told them where the house was or handed LV a slip of paper with the address.

But what made me want to hurl the book across the room last night was Hermione's lament that because she had shown the DE the house, he would now be able to bring all of the other DEs to 12GP. EXCUSE ME?! Since when can a non-SK divulge the house's location? I can buy that the SK's death confers SK rights to all those who already know the secret. But that in no way implies that every person the new SKs tell becomes a SK too. In fact, it implies the opposite because it tells us that the SK function still exists and should remain the same only with multiple SKs. Hermione's slip-up just seems like a ridiculous plot device to force the trio to leave 12GP and I'm annoyed that JKR didn't even try to make any of the SK plot make any sort of sense.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 09/12/2007 01:26:18
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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/12/2007 :  13:05:59  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Snape is extremely emotional - passionate even, I would say. He has learned to hide his feelings, but his trip to 12GP must have occurred almost immediately after he killed DD, so he has to have been a complete wreck and then to find Lily's letter - the only two people who had ever believed in him and he killed them both. It doesn't get any worse than that. What astonishes me is that he was actually able to pick himself up and go on as utterly alone as he was.

I think what bothers me about this scene is that I can't separate it from thoughts of the SK mess. I know that many people don't care about such things, but blatant logical contradictions really do ruin a story for me.
That last year must have been complete torment for Snape. He was so alone and so faithful. That's why I so wanted to SEE him experience some happiness in the book--either here or in the hereafter.

Problems like the SK confusion niggle at me when I read a book, Theo, but I don't think they bother me as much as they do you. I actually found the wand thing worse because it was so confusing and complex that it broke the flow and the feel of the book. Here we were rocking along in the most exciting scenes--and in the back of my mind I'm thinking "O.K., who's on first?"

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Siobhan
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Posted - 09/12/2007 :  16:32:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

"O.K., who's on first?"

Yes. What's on second and I Don't Know's on third...


Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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Theowyn
Looney

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Posted - 09/12/2007 :  18:19:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't even get me started on the wand business...
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

That last year must have been complete torment for Snape. He was so alone and so faithful. That's why I so wanted to SEE him experience some happiness in the book--either here or in the hereafter.
Snape's position was heartbreaking, but of course, he simply would have buried all of his feelings and gone about his duty as he's always done. I wasn't disappointed in not seeing him experience any happiness though. There was none for him in life beyond the chance to look into Harry's eyes as he died. As for the afterlife, I'm content that JKR left that to our imaginations. I know that death was a welcome relief to Severus and that he found peace and love on the other side of the veil as surely as his reputation was redeemed on this side. There's also plenty of excellent fanfiction versions of this. I can live with that.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 09/13/2007 :  13:10:06  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
I wasn't disappointed in not seeing him experience any happiness though. There was none for him in life beyond the chance to look into Harry's eyes as he died. As for the afterlife, I'm content that JKR left that to our imaginations. I know that death was a welcome relief to Severus and that he found peace and love on the other side of the veil as surely as his reputation was redeemed on this side. There's also plenty of excellent fanfiction versions of this. I can live with that.

As I think I've said before, after my initial irritation with how Snape's story was handled, I have come to the conclusion that we got the best we could hope for given Jo's attitude toward her creation. Thus, I too am glad that so much of Snape's story can be left to our imaginations. I think it weakens the book itself, but it sure does make for rich fanfiction. No body. No portrait. No burial. Yippee! Snape lives--and it doesn't even violate canon horrifically. And as you say, there have been some lovely stories written that take several of the dead beyond the veil into reunions with those they love.

But part of my problem with envisioning that as Snape's "only" reward is that I'm a little ticked at Lily for abandoning him. In fact, Snape's loyalty to Lily after she showed him so little makes me think she wasn't really worthy of the loyalty. Sigh! I am such a Severus fan girl. It's really a little disturbing.

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