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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2007 :  18:24:59  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yea! Marathon posts over here in our own little corner of HPG! Maybe we should rename this the Psych Ward while we work out our unresolved anger.
quote:
He certainly had to be revealed as the Grand Manipulator he was. There was no way around the fact that DD knew Harry was a horcrux and had failed to tell him. But this would have been okay if, instead of dumping the task on Snape, DD had left Harry some of his own memories.

This would have been simple to do. When Harry arrived in Hogsmeade and met up with Aberforth, the old barkeep could have had the Pensieve and a beaker of memories waiting. "Albus said you'd be turn up. He told me to give you this."

It would have made a lot more sense for Harry to take time to view DD's memories before heading into battle than for him to stop in the middle of that battle to view Snape's. Virtually every crucial piece of information Harry learns from Snape he could have learned from DD, starting with Snape's desperate plea for DD to save Lily's life. Of course, DD would have left two special memories for Harry. An introduction along the lines of... "Harry, if you are seeing these memories then I am dead and Severus has killed me, but you must understand that things are not what they seem..." and a final memory along the lines of what we got in King's Cross... "Forgive me, Harry, for not having told you all of this sooner..."


Yes, yes, yes! That's exactly what I thought. Snape was given nothing of importance to do as far as Harry and his quest was concerned. The sword could have easily been retrieved some other way, and leaving the giving of the memories to the deep undercover agent who should have no contact with Harry was stupid. And especially, as you point out, Harry has to go to Aberforth already. If Snape's only role that couldn't be done by anyone else was protecting the students, then ALL his backstory is meaningless drivel--nice to know but unimportant.
quote:
I think this was less an artistic choice than a path of least resistence. Symbolic deaths and intentionally "meaningless" deaths are really easy to write and these "messages" give a veneer of "depth" to deaths that are really quite trite and unaffecting. Sort of like splattering paint on a canvass and calling it Modern Art.
Snort! When she put in the hard work--Dobby--I bawled like a baby. And yet for so many things, as you say, we have to wait for the encyclopedia. I really hope she doesn't write it because at this point it would just muck up more stuff. She doesn't even know what Ron is doing, much less everyone else we care about.
quote:
DH is a throwback, but being a step back in her literary abilities wouldn't be fatal to DH if it weren't for the second point you make here - it is unsatisfying to adults. One of the unique things about HP is that it follows Harry from childhood to adulthood and in doing so grows (or should grow) from a children's series into an adult one. JKR has even said as much, commenting that the latter books aren't really for children. And yet, DH is in most ways nothing more than a children's book, gratuitous deaths and sexual innuendo not withstanding.


Another excellent point, because this was one of the things I really noticed and appreciated in the previous books. When Harry was 11, he acted 11. When the boys were 15 and Hermione was 16, again, the characterization was spot on. But in this book, you lose that and while it should have felt more adult, it really didn't, except for the gratuitous deaths and sexual innuendo--and as you've just said, anyone can do that. It's easy. You managed to do double duty with your sexual innuendo in HPCS, which Jo certainly could have done if she had taken the time.
quote:
Me too, though I was disappointed that "LOVE" didn't play a role there. After the huge buildup - "the power the Dark Lord knows not" - Love played no role at all in Harry's final victory. It all came down to the lucky stroke of having disarmed Draco several weeks earlier. I'm sorry, but I just don't find that particularly inspiring and it was sort of a weird let down after the forest.

What was the power the Dark Lord knew not? And again, the wand thing. Harry disarmed Draco, but it wasn't of the Elder Wand. But Voldie KILLED Harry, so why did the wand stay with Harry? Oh my aching head!
quote:
I just wish that JKR had cared as much about her story as I did mine. As you say, Siobhan, I could accept her view of any of the characters if it had just been set up better and given proper closure. It just isn't that hard to do if you put a little effort into it.


Yes, I thought at first that I was just peeved at Snape's worthless death--and then at her dismissal of him. Saying he doesn't even have a portrait in the headmaster's office--steam came out my ears at that! But while she took care of many of her set-ups, so many wonderful ones were missed, especially on characterization.
quote:
Well, as a practical matter I'm quite sure we'll be seeing better versions of DH out on the net soon. There are some very talented writers out there who are every bit as upset as we are.


I've never invested so much energy into a book series before, and now I feel that I really need those great fanfiction writers to do what JKR didn't do and give me a splendid closure for all my mental efforts over the years. Sort of take the bad taste out of my mouth. How bout you give me a heads up when you find some, Theo?

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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/22/2007 :  21:15:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Or better yet, write them (oh all right, more of them, then).

I guess it would be rather fun to start with JKR's text and make all the changes required from there. Personally, I'd be for as little meddling as necessary, but that's because I would want to keep the "voice" right. Oooooh, let's get out our highlighters and editing handbooks!

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sunsethill
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USA
653 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  14:27:08  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Or better yet, write them (oh all right, more of them, then).

I guess it would be rather fun to start with JKR's text and make all the changes required from there. Personally, I'd be for as little meddling as necessary, but that's because I would want to keep the "voice" right. Oooooh, let's get out our highlighters and editing handbooks!


Siobhan, I nearly choked on my tea when I saw you had changed the title of this thread!

This is when I wished I had the ability to really write. I don't have the inherent imagination. My third son does. When he was about 8 he spent a LONG time wondering about the ramifications of Pluto crashing into the sun. I have to be satisfied with being pretty good at catching characterization clues in other people's writing, but I can never figure out how they're going to get said characters out of the situations they put them in. Of course, that means I am constantly surprised.

And keeping the voice right is one of the things Theo did best. And I'm not the only one to think that. I noticed when she first published the story on FFnet that there were numerous comments on how much the story felt like one that Rowling would have written--pre-OotP, though, eh, Theo?

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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/23/2007 :  14:42:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  18:46:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill
...Snape was given nothing of importance to do as far as Harry and his quest was concerned. The sword could have easily been retrieved some other way, and leaving the giving of the memories to the deep undercover agent who should have no contact with Harry was stupid. And especially, as you point out, Harry has to go to Aberforth already. If Snape's only role that couldn't be done by anyone else was protecting the students, then ALL his backstory is meaningless drivel--nice to know but unimportant.
This is my biggest problem with Snape. It isn't that he died or even how he died, but the fact that he just wasn't used to good effect in the story. What's the point of having a master spy when he doesn't do any spying?! Worse, all of the pieces were right in front of JKR, begging to be put together.

Harry has no clue where to even start looking for horcruxes. He knows virtually nothing about them at all. At the same time, LV's righthand man happens to be a double agent with a Patronus that Harry trusts implicitly. Gosh! Could Snape maybe, possibly have discovered some information worth passing on to Harry? This would have been more believeable than some of the blatant plot devices we were asked to swallow.

Gee! How convenient that those goblins just happened to turn up camping next to Harry and had that really useful conversation about GG's sword! And how convenient that Mary Pop- er, Hermione could just summon all those books on horcruxes! *Groans*

JKR deliberately bypassed a brilliant means of getting Harry information in favor of a string of ridiculous ones. And think of the drama that we missed! Harry following the doe with an almost religious faith interspersed with news of Snape's "attrocities" at Hogwarts. The trio trying to work out who was sending the doe as it called them to increasingly perilous adventures. And imagine the moment when, after months of trust, Harry discovers who has been helping him. I can think of at least three different ways this revelation could have been done beautifully. What a stunning waste of plot and character.

quote:
...And yet for so many things, as you say, we have to wait for the encyclopedia. I really hope she doesn't write it because at this point it would just muck up more stuff. She doesn't even know what Ron is doing, much less everyone else we care about.
Even if she does write it, I doubt I'll buy it because I really don't care that much about anyone's job or what their dog's name is. The story is all in the novels and that's all that really matters to me.

quote:
quote:
Me too, though I was disappointed that "LOVE" didn't play a role there. After the huge buildup - "the power the Dark Lord knows not" - Love played no role at all in Harry's final victory. It all came down to the lucky stroke of having disarmed Draco several weeks earlier. I'm sorry, but I just don't find that particularly inspiring and it was sort of a weird let down after the forest.
What was the power the Dark Lord knew not? And again, the wand thing. Harry disarmed Draco, but it wasn't of the Elder Wand. But Voldie KILLED Harry, so why did the wand stay with Harry? Oh my aching head!
Oh, don't even get me started on that stupid wand!! Grrrrr!!
quote:
quote:
Well, as a practical matter I'm quite sure we'll be seeing better versions of DH out on the net soon. There are some very talented writers out there who are every bit as upset as we are.

I've never invested so much energy into a book series before, and now I feel that I really need those great fanfiction writers to do what JKR didn't do and give me a splendid closure for all my mental efforts over the years. Sort of take the bad taste out of my mouth. How bout you give me a heads up when you find some, Theo?
I definitely will, or as Siobhan says, I may write my own if nothing notable appears anytime soon.

quote:
And keeping the voice right is one of the things Theo did best. And I'm not the only one to think that. I noticed when she first published the story on FFnet that there were numerous comments on how much the story felt like one that Rowling would have written--pre-OotP, though, eh, Theo?
Thank you! I did try very hard to be as faithful to canon as possible in every respect. I'm still getting wonderful reviews which is very heartwarming.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 08/23/2007 18:58:39
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sunsethill
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653 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  21:01:55  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
I definitely will, or as Siobhan says, I may write my own if nothing notable appears anytime soon.


Every one of the ideas you have mentioned, Theo, would add up to some wonderful scenes. I had expected Snape's patronus to be important in this book to show his continued allegiance to DD. Now the idea of his patronus being a doe is actually quite striking--one of those thought-provoking ideas we see so often. But the use it was put to! Leading Harry on a nonsensical quest to take the sword in a heroic manner. What??? Where were we ever told the sword needed to be taken? Fawkes just brought the Sorting Hat, dropped it to Harry, and the sword hit him on the head. I didn't see Neville taking the sword in a heroic manner. Your ideas, Theo, make much more sense.

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Myf
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Posted - 08/23/2007 :  21:51:46  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Just dropped in briefly to fix the misspelling in the title of the thread. Drove me nuts.

I'll leave you all to your flailing. :)

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

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2157 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2007 :  10:37:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, my fingers don't spell so well and I've been in a bit of a hurry when visiting the boards recently.

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sunsethill
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653 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2007 :  16:13:50  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Myf

Just dropped in briefly to fix the misspelling in the title of the thread. Drove me nuts.

I'll leave you all to your flailing. :)


Thanks, Myf. Can't believe I didn't notice it myself. And you will notice that I am doing my wailing and complaining and trying to deal with my unresolved anger over here in this little corner of the board where it won't bother everyone else.

And I would love to discuss aspects of the book I liked elsewhere, but it seems like since this is the last one, people are not as interested in theorizing, etc.

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Theowyn
Looney

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Posted - 08/25/2007 :  02:23:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill
Every one of the ideas you have mentioned, Theo, would add up to some wonderful scenes. I had expected Snape's patronus to be important in this book to show his continued allegiance to DD. Now the idea of his patronus being a doe is actually quite striking--one of those thought-provoking ideas we see so often. But the use it was put to! Leading Harry on a nonsensical quest to take the sword in a heroic manner. What??? Where were we ever told the sword needed to be taken? Fawkes just brought the Sorting Hat, dropped it to Harry, and the sword hit him on the head. I didn't see Neville taking the sword in a heroic manner. Your ideas, Theo, make much more sense.
Yeah, but how else were we going to get Harry naked?

Seriously though, the "must be taken with valor" bit was weird and was simply a device to allow Ron to save Harry's life. This was the "Ron proves himself a hero" scene, after all. Having been absent for weeks, he suddenly returns at exactly the right moment, saves Harry's life, overcomes his hitherto nonexistent jealousy of H/Hr (he's been reading those shipping threads!) and destroys a horcrux - all in the space of a couple of pages. I could practically hear JKR checking off little boxes under the heading of "Ron's character development". Right, that's done.

I wholeheartedly agree that Snape's patronus being a doe is a striking and thought-provoking idea. One of the most frustrating things about DH is that it has wonderful gems such as this strewn throughout it, but more often than not little comes of them or they get lost among all the dross.

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Krabat
Giddy

Germany
40 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2007 :  07:15:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi,

I hope I don't intrude in a more or less private discussion. You all have some excellent points. I read DH the day it came out and after finishing I was really confused about my feelings. Basically I think that the book doesn't match with the previous ones, but since it was supposed to bring closure that wasn't to surprising. I agree that the book has the feeling of being written in a rather great rush which is rather disappointing. Nevertheless I think it was o.k. Sadly it could (should?) have been more than o.k. with a little more care.

One of my great misgivings also was the character development, for the main characters as well as the minor ones. Just a few thoughts about that: Remus Lupin. Was that the same Remus Lupin of the six other books? The thoughtful and level-headed Remus Lupin? I'll buy that he offers help to the trio, because he is a responsible adult. But not because he has issues about his family. And surely he wouldn't be provoked so easily by Harry and leave in a huff, making no more attempt to help the three kids.
Dumbledore. I actually liked his backstory. He came to close to be corrupted by power and decided to stay clear of too much political power (although he definitely had great influence on the course of the wizarding world). That he was not the benevolent grandfather was already shown in HBP, where he at times was rather arrogant and manipulative. But in the end of OotP we have seen how much he cares for Harry, or was that all an act? He doesn't seem to mind too much to send Harry to his death and mocks Snape for caring? (By the way, astounding parallel to Theo's story, where DD does not tell Harry he has to kill all the DEs and keeps his hopes for Snape secret. The difference is that Theo properly motivated and explained that behaviour). And his behaviour towards Snape is so at odds with everything we have seen before.
Some minor characters I was disappointed with: Draco Malfoy. Although off-screen, he was developed into an interesting charcter in HBP. Arrogance turned into despair when he was confronted with the reality of his choices. In the end he even had to face his limits concerning the act of killing (Defence practicum anyone?). And in DH? Draco was just some whiny ballast we could have done without, except that he was used to highlight the noble trio.
Neville Longbottom. We didn't see any of his development and for me the Hero!Neville was totally unbelievable, nearly carricature. Same for Molly in the fight with Bella, I was almost embarassed by her lines in that fight.

In the end, a couple of words to Snape. He has the greatest potential and was just wasted. As Theo already said, the doe patronus was a great plot device. Why didn't Rowling use it? Now I could only repeat Theo's ideas how to drive the plot (and the character development!!!!)... I would love to read that version of DH (pretty please doe eyes at Theo).

So much for now,
Krabat

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2007 :  13:51:49  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Yeah, but how else were we going to get Harry naked?

Snort! I actually thought of this soon after I posted the comment. I wondered if she might have put that in there just so the movie fans could see Daniel Radcliffe's bare chest again. And three years after GoF--even better definition.

quote:
Seriously though, the "must be taken with valor" bit was weird and was simply a device to allow Ron to save Harry's life. This was the "Ron proves himself a hero" scene, after all.

I've already fussed about this one. It was one of the things that bothered me while I was actually reading it, because I really thought Rowling had established that Ron had dealt with his jealousy in GoF. Maybe Rowling had been reading all the "I hate Ron!" threads.

I'm just finishing a read-aloud of PS/SS to my two youngest children. We just came to another mention of the dragons in Gringotts, which I take as more "proof" of my theory that DH was set too much in stone when she first plotted PS and DH. It would be interesting to note where the plot points that were actually finished off first appeared in the series--how many from Book 1, how many Book 2, etc.?

quote:
I hope I don't intrude in a more or less private discussion.
Krabat, if I wanted to have a private discussion, I wouldn't be "moaning" on a public thread. I just knew that several of the long-time HPGers were tired of this topic, so I snuck over here to bend Siobhan and Theowyn's ears.
quote:
Remus Lupin. Was that the same Remus Lupin of the six other books?
I'm not a Lupin-lover the same way I am a Snape-lover, but his descent into irrationality was confusing to me, as well. It didn't bother me as much as the way his death was handled, because I know how Rowling feels about family, and she wanted to make a point about not abandoning one's responsibilities. But that point doesn't really fit with Remus and Tonks both running off to the Battle. Logically, what the Trio was doing was as important to winning the war as the final battle. But I think the rebuke was for the REASON he was wanting to go with them, as you point out.
quote:
Dumbledore. I actually liked his backstory. He came to close to be corrupted by power and decided to stay clear of too much political power (although he definitely had great influence on the course of the wizarding world). That he was not the benevolent grandfather was already shown in HBP, where he at times was rather arrogant and manipulative. But in the end of OotP we have seen how much he cares for Harry, or was that all an act? He doesn't seem to mind too much to send Harry to his death and mocks Snape for caring? ...And his behaviour towards Snape is so at odds with everything we have seen before.


I also liked Dumbledore's backstory, except for the treatment of Snape that is shown and the plot point of Harry having to trust DD on faith when DD has been shown to be manipulating him. What I find interesting is how DD's portrayal plays into my recent obsession with how Rowling portrays Slytherin House. Snape is shown to be a "good" guy because he is really a closet Gryffindor, and DD's fall from grace is caused by his acting like a Slytherin and being ambitious and seeking power. He also shows quite a lot of cunning. So why wasn't DD a Slytherin? By the end of DH, he is the most Slytherin character we have seen, but if he had been sorted into Slytherin, Harry would have "known" that he was not to be trusted, according to Rowling's value system.

I also want to scream at what was done to Draco. We see Draco stuck in a horrible situation in his Manor where he obviously doesn't want to hurt any of the Trio. In the RoR, he shows great concern for Crabbe and Goyle. It would have been SO easy to show him decide to quietly help the good guys--he is a Slytherin after all and not too brave--but he could have decided to pick off some of those who had caused his family so much grief and hope to help Harry take out the evil man who is torturing the parents he loves. But no, as you say Krabat, he stays a whiny brat.

And you didn't like Super!Neville? I was actually surprised to see how much DH had of all the secondary Trio since they virtually disappeared from HBP. I interpreted his bravery as coming to the front because Harry et al. had been removed from the scene, sort of like DD dying caused Harry to have to step up to the plate.


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Krabat
Giddy

Germany
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Posted - 08/26/2007 :  08:11:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, Sunsethill, I didn't like Super!Neville at all, and the reason comes close to your thoughts on house cliches. I always liked Neville, in particular in the first book. He was used to show (or so I thought) that courage comes in many different flavours. Neville was never described as warrior material, but when it really mattered he was able to bring himself to acting courageous. But it always seemed to be a lot of work for him to get his nerves up, and precisely this difficulty made his bravery so much more believable. In DH he was just a badly executed Harry copy. So apparently, there is only one kind of courage qualifying for Gryffindor membership after all.

The same goes for Slytherin. Again, in the first book, we were led to believe that all Slytherins are evil, because cunning is translated to underhanded. But then it turns out the most despicable head of Slytherin is one of the good guys, and again, goodness is not one concept but comes in different shades. I really liked the way it turned out in book 1. And the following books vary that theme (think of Luna's brand of intelligence). And now DH??? All Slytherins fight for Voldemort, or at least steal away in the night to not fight at all. Not a single one joins the opposition during the school year. When Harry and Co entered the Room of Requirement and Slytherin was missing, I fully expected to find out later that they formed their own resistance since the other houses did not let them in on theirs. What a disappointment. And our one and only redeeming Slytherin should have been sorted in Gryffindor??? That comment shows a terrifying narrowmindedness on Dumbledore's part (in character with his behaviour during the other books. Do not get me started on what I thought of the House Cup ceremony in the end of book 1.), but I would have hoped that it is not shared by the author. It even follows us into the revolting epilogue, where Harry's children still have the same view on the houses. A token protest by Harry and "if you want you can still choose the good house". After finishing the Epilogue I could only think: All is well!?!?!?
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Siobhan
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USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2007 :  10:17:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Husband has been reading DH this weekend. I don't know now close he is to finishing, but it will be interesting to hear what he thinks. I have noticed he is very quiet about the book. A friend that finished the book recently called me long distance to talk about it. He didn't sound very happy, either-- mostly confused about what he felt.

I sometimes wonder how much of our disappointment comes from the fact that we followed every book/interview/webchat so closely, disucssed so completely, and theorised so fully. I've read most of the series 7+ times, with the exception of the last 3 books. I reread the OotP and HBP just before DH came out. I was definitely expecting more than we got. Husband, on the other hand, hasn't read the whole series in ages. He has read each book as it came out and only once each. His views on the series are very simply summed up, not requiring ages of discussion or theorisation. He hasn't followed everything that JKR has said in interviews and whatnot. Then again, he has no idea who sent the silver doe, either. Husband has no preconceived ideas of where the story is going. I'm sure he has an idea of where it should go, though that simply be a matter of Harry stopping Voldemort. Hmmmmm. I guess I'll just wait and see. I should reread DH, but I've been putting it off.

It seems my aprehensions about this final book have been realised, unfortunately. At this point, I have to conclude that DH is a near miss for me for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I so wanted it to send me into orbit. Perhaps if I lowered my standards....

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sunsethill
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Posted - 08/27/2007 :  14:30:36  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Krabat

No, Sunsethill, I didn't like Super!Neville at all, and the reason comes close to your thoughts on house cliches. I always liked Neville, in particular in the first book. He was used to show (or so I thought) that courage comes in many different flavours. Neville was never described as warrior material, but when it really mattered he was able to bring himself to acting courageous. But it always seemed to be a lot of work for him to get his nerves up, and precisely this difficulty made his bravery so much more believable. In DH he was just a badly executed Harry copy. So apparently, there is only one kind of courage qualifying for Gryffindor membership after all.

This is a really important point, Krabat, that I hadn't really thought about before. By DH, we have almost returned to a stereotypical view of the two main houses. Neville is a super!warrior brave kind of dude. Slytherin really does consist of slimy gits who can't stand for the light without being manipulated (with the exception of Slughorn, who no one really likes or identifies with). It is a step backwards from the nuanced treatment of the houses that was emerging. And is one more point in favor of the plotting of DH taking place after PS and not really being updated.

quote:
Husband has been reading DH this weekend. I don't know now close he is to finishing, but it will be interesting to hear what he thinks. I have noticed he is very quiet about the book. A friend that finished the book recently called me long distance to talk about it. He didn't sound very happy, either-- mostly confused about what he felt.

Let us know what his reaction is, Siobhan. I think you are right that most children and one-time readers will be pretty happy with the book, as will most of those who focused primarily on the Trio and didn't really appreciate Snape's character.

I come back to the plot of the book being too cluttered up with the Hallows. *I* don't think they are needed, but Jo obviously wanted them and liked them. But the new information on the cloak shafts what most people remembered from the earlier books, the resurrection stone was a device just to get DD's hand cursed and to let the Marauders accompany Harry to his death, and the wand MAKES NO SENSE!

I was thinking again about DD's supposed "plan" to have Snape kill him. It made sense when we thought that the Trio needed super!spy Snape to feed them information to find the horcruxes, but makes no sense when DD wants to not lose possession of the Elder Wand in order to die undefeated. If his plan had worked, then he had to know that Snape was a sitting duck as soon as Voldie found it (he virtually assured Snape's death with the plan), and then Harry would have had no power over the Wand to duel Voldie at the end and survive. Harry would have died twice, because he sure as shooting wasn't ever given enough training to have to duel Voldie and actually win. Thus, the one thing that holds true of DD's character through the whole series--that he is smart enough to figure out how to defeat Voldie for good--falls flat on its face because if Draco hadn't accidentally disarmed DD, Voldie would still be in power because Harry sure didn't have the ability to defeat Voldie without the help of the wand answering to Harry.


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Theowyn
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Posted - 08/27/2007 :  17:35:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Krabat! It's great to hear from you. Pull up a chair and have some tea.

quote:
I was really confused about my feelings. Basically I think that the book doesn't match with the previous ones, but since it was supposed to bring closure that wasn't too surprising.
But it should have matched. DH should have felt exactly like all the previous books and should have tied up all the loose plot threads that have been spun throughout the series. I think authors can get freaked out and try to do too much in such a book.

Just before DH came out, I heard an interview on the radio and some critic was saying that it was one thing to successfully end a book and another to successfully end a series. He commented that the authors of several other recent series of books had failed in the latter and speculated as to whether or not JKR would pull it off. IMO, she didn't precisely because she was too intent on introducing a new twist (the DHs) and didn't put enough effort into pulling everything together into a satisfying conclusion.

quote:
Dumbledore was rather arrogant and manipulative. But in the end of OotP we have seen how much he cares for Harry, or was that all an act? He doesn't seem to mind too much to send Harry to his death and mocks Snape for caring? (By the way, astounding parallel to Theo's story, where DD does not tell Harry he has to kill all the DEs and keeps his hopes for Snape secret. The difference is that Theo properly motivated and explained that behaviour). And his behaviour towards Snape is so at odds with everything we have seen before.
Thank you for the compliment. One of the fun things in reading DH was picking out the parallels with HPCS. DD's character seemed inconsistent to me in DH. One minute he's scoffing at Snape for caring that Harry is to die, the next he's crying because Snape's Patronus is still a doe. Maybe the guy was just senile, but I think it's more probable that this was a failure of the writing.

quote:
As Theo already said, the doe patronus was a great plot device. Why didn't Rowling use it? Now I could only repeat Theo's ideas how to drive the plot (and the character development!!!!)... I would love to read that version of DH (pretty please doe eyes at Theo).
Lol! I may write that version, but at the moment I'm actually beta-reading for a woman who is writing her own revision of DH. It keeps a lot of the DH plot, but uses the Fouders relics as the Deathly Hallows and leaves out the Elder Wand, etc. I'll keep you posted on it.

Re Ron's jealousy: The weird thing about Ron's jealousy is that he has never been jealous of Harry and Hermione. He was jealous of Krum and what's-his-name in HBP, but Harry?!

quote:
quote:
Remus Lupin. Was that the same Remus Lupin of the six other books?

I'm not a Lupin-lover the same way I am a Snape-lover, but his descent into irrationality was confusing to me, as well. It didn't bother me as much as the way his death was handled, because I know how Rowling feels about family, and she wanted to make a point about not abandoning one's responsibilities. But that point doesn't really fit with Remus and Tonks both running off to the Battle. Logically, what the Trio was doing was as important to winning the war as the final battle. But I think the rebuke was for the REASON he was wanting to go with them, as you point out.
This is a very good point. This is another case of JKR rushing. Had she given us a few more hints about Remus's worry/guilt/conflict over Tonks and the Baby earlier, this wouldn't have felt as though it was coming out of left field at us. As it is, Remus comes in, drops this bombshell about wanting to leave his family, is rebuked by Harry and rushes off. And we're left blinking at the page thinking, "What just happened?"

Re Draco: I was really surprised that Draco didn't grow beyond being a whiny brat. I agree that it would have been SO easy to show him decide to quietly help the good guys. Heck, that would have been the Slytherin thing to do! It doesn't get more self-interested.

quote:
I also liked Dumbledore's backstory, except for the treatment of Snape that is shown and the plot point of Harry having to trust DD on faith when DD has been shown to be manipulating him. What I find interesting is how DD's portrayal plays into my recent obsession with how Rowling portrays Slytherin House. Snape is shown to be a "good" guy because he is really a closet Gryffindor, and DD's fall from grace is caused by his acting like a Slytherin and being ambitious and seeking power. He also shows quite a lot of cunning. So why wasn't DD a Slytherin? By the end of DH, he is the most Slytherin character we have seen, but if he had been sorted into Slytherin, Harry would have "known" that he was not to be trusted, according to Rowling's value system.
quote:
All Slytherins fight for Voldemort, or at least steal away in the night to not fight at all. Not a single one joins the opposition during the school year. When Harry and Co entered the Room of Requirement and Slytherin was missing, I fully expected to find out later that they formed their own resistance since the other houses did not let them in on theirs. What a disappointment. And our one and only redeeming Slytherin should have been sorted in Gryffindor??? That comment shows a terrifying narrowmindedness on Dumbledore's part (in character with his behaviour during the other books. Do not get me started on what I thought of the House Cup ceremony in the end of book 1.), but I would have hoped that it is not shared by the author. It even follows us into the revolting epilogue, where Harry's children still have the same view on the houses. A token protest by Harry and "if you want you can still choose the good house". After finishing the Epilogue I could only think: All is well!?!?!?
I like the idea of Slytherin!Dumbledore. This makes a good point about the black and white way in which the houses are depicted in DH. I was terribly disappointed with the epilogue in this regard. Whatever happened to house unity?

quote:
Husband has been reading DH this weekend. I don't know now close he is to finishing, but it will be interesting to hear what he thinks. I have noticed he is very quiet about the book. A friend that finished the book recently called me long distance to talk about it. He didn't sound very happy, either-- mostly confused about what he felt.
Siobhan, I am really curious as to what your husband will think of the book. It's one thing for us rabid fans to debate the fine points of plot, but it's the reaction of people who haven't followed every book/interview/webchat and analysed the series completely that is most telling.

quote:
I think you are right that most children and one-time readers will be pretty happy with the book, as will most of those who focused primarily on the Trio and didn't really appreciate Snape's character.
Kids, maybe, though the sexual references really put DH beyond a kid's book. I mean Ron's yelling at Harry for groping his sister for pete's sake! So I consider DH to be PG-13. Anyone that age is old enough to notice the plot holes - even first-time readers.

Specifically, SH, the problem you note in the plot regarding the Elder Wand is NOT something arcane that only die-hard HP fans would notice. This is a basic flaw in the plot that any careful reader would see and it makes me want to scream.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 08/27/2007 17:43:06
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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/28/2007 :  11:30:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Husband has finished the book. Overall he said it was "pretty good." He's been very quiet about it, though, which is a switch since he was the one who kept telling me I really ought to read the series way back when.

Back to his reaction to DH. He wasn't keen on the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the book. The Neverending Campout with all the anger/rage/angst felt too much like OotP revisited. He says he could understand Harry being angry, but it was too repetitive. Perhaps felt too much like the influence of the One Ring. But when they got back to Hogwarts, Husband's opinion seems to have improved.

I kept asking him questions (I was impatient) and he finally asked me if he could "just enjoy reading the book!?" He didn't want to try to figure things out ahead of time or look for clues (I don't think I was consciously looking for clues, but I was able to recognise them when I read them-- then again a friend recently told me that I am very analytical). He was clueless about Snape loving Lily-- even when he was reading The Prince's Tale (we had dinner just after he had started the chapter-- he'd got as far as the trip to Hogwarts). I don't know how he could have missed that. Or perhaps he didn't miss it and just hadn't put the whole thing into perspective yet.

I also mentioned Dumbledore's manipulative role. He agreed that Gambon's Dumbledore fits better into that role than Harris's-- he didn't seem pleased by it. I may try to wring some more reaction from him tonight, but I'm not very hopeful. He's been reserved about the last few books. Or maybe he just hasn't been as wrapped up in it all and that's why it appears like reserve to me. Heaven forbid he should come here and post!



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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/29/2007 :  11:19:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
More on Mad-Eye's response.

He felt the characters, aside from the trio, became cardboard.
The trio were repetitive.
Machiavelli Dumbledore didn't bother him much.

Snivelling Snape ticked him off. He felt JKR had a strong character and had given him such a build up in the previous books, that his role in the end was a real let down. What he seems to have had trouble with here was how she portrayed Snape's emotions. He was built up as a bitter, angry, totally self-contained person. In Mad-Eye's opinion, a person under so much control should have been angry and raging over Lily's death rather than snivelling and sobbing. Same with the letter scene. It would have been more consistent to see him angry and determined rather than weak and teary eyed. Oh, he had figured out the Snape loved Lily (I'm not sure when he came to this conclusion so I don't know if he got to the idea of a betrayal), but didn't see how it was important.

He felt the Hallows plot just petered out. The wand theme was rather weak. The ring theme was pointless except for having Harry's dead family surrounding him before the first end, but that that was rather weak as well. They didn't really accomplish anything by their presence that couldn't have been done by simple thought/memory. The extraordinariness of the cloak was explained, but big deal. The plot device of the Elder wand was weak and rather poorly done.

Fred's death surprised him, though he agreed with me that the death of one of the Weasley's was kind of necessary given the odds. I think he agreed with me that Percy would have been a more satisfying recipient of that honor.

So, in short, he was disappointed even though he did not sit through years of speculation.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 08/29/2007 :  12:00:16  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

More on Mad-Eye's response.

He felt the characters, aside from the trio, became cardboard.
The trio were repetitive.
Machiavelli Dumbledore didn't bother him much.

Snivelling Snape ticked him off. He felt JKR had a strong character and had given him such a build up in the previous books, that his role in the end was a real let down. ... Oh, he had figured out the Snape loved Lily (I'm not sure when he came to this conclusion so I don't know if he got to the idea of a betrayal), but didn't see how it was important.

He felt the Hallows plot just petered out. The wand theme was rather weak. The ring theme was pointless except for having Harry's dead family surrounding him before the first end, but that that was rather weak as well. They didn't really accomplish anything by their presence that couldn't have been done by simple thought/memory. The extraordinariness of the cloak was explained, but big deal. The plot device of the Elder wand was weak and rather poorly done.

Fred's death surprised him, though he agreed with me that the death of one of the Weasley's was kind of necessary given the odds. I think he agreed with me that Percy would have been a more satisfying recipient of that honor.

I find it fascinating that your husband hit on so many of the things that we have been discussing here. First, after spending five books building up a cast of wonderfully drawn supporting characters, they were dropped for way too much Trio--as much as I love them. Describing them as "cardboard" characters is how I viewed them, too.

I'm glad he also felt that Snape was under-used and poorly used given the build up he had received. Again, I expected Snape to die in this book even though I was hoping that he was the one who received the reprieve, but to have him ultimately matter so little. That would have been fine, except for all the build up as your husband noted. Snape could have stayed just a wonderful secondary character--but it was Jo herself who made him so intriguing and ubiqitous and important.

It's interesting that he agrees with us that the Hallows were a totally clunky plot device and not very well-realized. And he said just what I had posted about the ring--a silly device to have Lily and the Marauders there at the end. Actually the Christ symbolism would have been better if he had had to go it alone.

And yes! Percy should have been the Weasley death after reuniting with the family. It would have added the element of remorse for how they treated him, but since the Gryffindors apparently can do no wrong, then this wouldn't have been Jo's first choice.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 08/29/2007 :  12:56:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not surprised that Hubby came away with the same impression of DH as the rest of us, Siobhan. I've seen that same "quiet" reaction from friends and co-workers who were only casual HP fans. We had talked about the book excitedly before it came out and then afterward - silence. That is always a sure sign of embarrassed disappointment.

The problem, I think, is the HP mystique. Several people have mentioned that they felt confused about their feelings for the book. That's because EVERYONE expected and wanted to like this book. People feel guilty for not liking it, as though there's something wrong with them. But there isn't.

There are obvious flaws in the book that an objective reader can't help but spot. Many of the characters ARE cardboard and the trio IS repetative. The Hallows were either pointless or very poorly plotted.

What I really find interesting, Siobhan, is your husband's comments about Snape crying. There are so few men on the boards that it's always good to get another male perspective - particularly a fairly disinterested one. Men do react differently to emotions than women. We think it's perfectly natural to sob over the kind of loss Snape endured, but it'd be interesting to know how many guys think Snape was OOC for crying. I can certainly see the validity of that pov.

I wouldn't really count that against JKR, but I do think it could prompt a fascinating discussion about the difference between how male and female authors handle characterization.

As to which Weasley should have died, Fred would have been fine if his death had been handled better. Percy would have worked, too. My personal favorite would have been Molly though - and not just because that's what I wrote in HPEW. It would have fit with motherly sacrifice (dying for her family) and would have had the most profound impact on the Weasley clan (all those grandkids who would never have known their grandmother, but who would have grown up hearing stories of her bravery). It would have also spared us the tragedy of yet another too-early death and given us the bonus of Percy's bitter/sweet regret and relief over having been estranged from his mother and reconciling with her just before her death.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 08/31/2007 00:44:46
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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/29/2007 :  13:47:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mad-Eye was very particularly bothered by Snape's whiney heiny-ness toward the end. It didn't really bother me so much, but I think that is because of Thanon. The breakdowns make sense given the seed of the idea that Snape is vulnerable and feels great guilt and remorse. However, it does seem out of character for canon. We had no reason to think he would suddenly break down in tears. The only way Snape has ever reacted (that we have seen before) to having his vulnerability attacked is to get nearly insanely angry. Anger makes much more sense. For someone who is such a master at self-control to breakdown in sobs even privately (let alone with another person present) is a stretch-- especially given what JKR has said outside of her text of his character (bitter, vindictive, etc.).

Oh, and Hubby mentioned those things because I asked him specifically for his views on them. I told him we were waiting for his opinion, and mentioned our specific issues to prompt some expression/reaction that he could go into.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 08/29/2007 :  16:04:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And even in Thannon you never actually see Snape cry.

Well okay, he admits to crying at MoM in HPCS, but we don't really see it and that was shock not remorse. The guy HAD just been to hell and back.

As with so many other things, it seems that this is another instance of JKR rushing. She used Snape's tears to show his guilt and remorse, but we probably needed this established some other way before we got to him sobbing in his memories. I think the fact that Snape's entire redemption was covered in a such a quick succession of scenes didn't help, either. If we'd had more time to digest his love, guilt and remorse, the tears might have felt more in character.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 08/29/2007 16:05:08
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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/29/2007 :  21:00:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps so, Theo. A person so self-contained, so tightly coiled doesn't give in/over easily, though. It is too frightening to contemplate losing that control even for a short while-- what if it is never regained? Snape had been in that role so long, it would take a lot of work and/or traumatic events (as in your stories) to get beyond that fear.

I think I could have accepted Snape being viciously vengeful (even in a controlled and quiet way) against Voldemort for killing Lily despite his saying he wouldn't. This could have been his motivation for spying (as opposed to continuing Lily's fight, ie. fighting on his own behalf). Snape could still protect Harry because of the prophecy and do a good turn for Lily's memory by watching over her son (thus fulfilling his obligation to his love). Hmmm. When did Snape learn the whole prophecy? I can't remember.

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Krabat
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Posted - 08/30/2007 :  03:42:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't have a problem with Snape crying, at least in the scenes I remember. I must admit I haven't finished my rereading yet, which in itself is a sign that I wasn't gripped by the book. Is he crying in one of the first war scenes? If so, I think it is o.k., since JK never gave much insight into his character when younger. But I definitely have the impression that he was very emotional, something that he got under tight control later in life. And there must have been some reason for his dreadful nickname Snivellus. So, yes, I think he would work on getting such shows of emotion under control, but I would also imagine that there are situations it gets away from him. The same works for me with regard to the scene in GP when he finds the photo of Lily and family. He must have been under a tremendous amount of emotional stress having killed Dumbledore, being faced with nearly impossible tasks to make that deed meaningful (by the way, how did Dumbledore imagine Snape would handle letting Harry know at precisely the right time what was required of him in a way that Harry would believe him???). I think it would be close to inhuman to come through all this without a breakdown at some point. But I agree that all of this is subjective
. JK chose to bombard us with all Snape relevant knowledge on a couple of pages with no reflection on it. I remember starting the next chapter and nearly feeling disoriented since there was not one meaningful thought on Snape's story on Harry's part. Of course he would focus on his sacrifice, but the memories ended with Snape's plan to send the doe, so for me the transition back to Harry was a bit bumpy.

One more comment to the way JK chose to present Harry with all the facts. I think she just chose the easiest way out. Both the use of a pensieve as well as the obligatory meeting with Dumbledore explaining everything were not very original. I was really curious before having read the book how a confrontation between Harry and Snape would play out, because so many problems would have to be adressed (enough for two whole books, I think. Don't you, Theo?). JK chose to avoid difficulties and use Snape simply as instruction manual for Harry. A pity.
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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:25:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A confrontation would have been interesting and probably more satisfying. It could have come in just before Voldemort killed Snape. Why not let Snape bring Harry to him and then kill both-- Snape first, of course? Voldie didn't seem to doubt Snape's ability or desire to produce Harry. If that offer had been acted upon, Snape and Harry could have dueled, Snape would probably have imparted some information that sparked Harry's curiosity during the duel, and then have obviously allowed Harry to mortally wound him. The memories could have been handed over as Harry demanded why Snape let him win. The curiosity sown would have been the motivation for Harry to actually look at the memories. The Elder wand would have fallen to Harry as was planned. Voldie wouldn't have been so confident, though. Hmmm.

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Theowyn
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Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:56:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I didn't have a problem with Snape crying, at least in the scenes I remember. I must admit I haven't finished my rereading yet, which in itself is a sign that I wasn't gripped by the book. Is he crying in one of the first war scenes? If so, I think it is o.k., since JK never gave much insight into his character when younger. But I definitely have the impression that he was very emotional, something that he got under tight control later in life. And there must have been some reason for his dreadful nickname Snivellus. So, yes, I think he would work on getting such shows of emotion under control, but I would also imagine that there are situations it gets away from him. The same works for me with regard to the scene in GP when he finds the photo of Lily and family. He must have been under a tremendous amount of emotional stress having killed Dumbledore, being faced with nearly impossible tasks to make that deed meaningful...
I agree. I think if we'd been given the chance to really feel the weight of these scenes instead of just breezing by them, Snape's tears would have made sense.

quote:
...by the way, how did Dumbledore imagine Snape would handle letting Harry know at precisely the right time what was required of him in a way that Harry would believe him???
The man was obviously senile. Actually, it's just another gaping plot hole.

quote:
One more comment to the way JK chose to present Harry with all the facts. I think she just chose the easiest way out. Both the use of a pensieve as well as the obligatory meeting with Dumbledore explaining everything were not very original. I was really curious before having read the book how a confrontation between Harry and Snape would play out, because so many problems would have to be adressed (enough for two whole books, I think. Don't you, Theo?). JK chose to avoid difficulties and use Snape simply as instruction manual for Harry. A pity.
Yes, two books would be just about right. Seriously though, she could have written some beautiful and believable scenes. This could have been done in myriad ways. Siobhan mentions one. Here's another.

Let's assume that DD had left Harry his own memories as he should have done. He knew he was dying, what could be more natural? So Harry meets Aberforth and views the memories before heading into Hogwarts. These memories would exonerate Snape but not give Harry the crucial last piece of info about Harry being a horcrux. Instead, DD would tell Harry to find Severus who has vital information for him. Now we have time for Harry to reflect on Snape and his own feelings, to recognize that he'd been wrong and to realize who had sent the doe Patronus to him and what that meant. Also, Harry now has an urgent purpose in finding Hogwarts current headmaster.

After this nice set-up, Harry goes up to Hogwarts, finds McGonagall, but discovers to his dismay that Snape has already been driven out of the castle. Cue lots of heroic fighting and horcrux destroying. Then, just as Harry is wondering what the heck he's going to do next, the silvery doe appears to him once more and Harry knows who has sent it and goes dashing off after it, following it off to some secluded spot where it finally stops and turns to look at him.

Harry slowed to a halt as well, panting from the chase. He glanced around his pitch-black surroundings, but he could see nothing beyond the radient glow of the doe which stood regarding him calmly in silence. He looked into her eyes and whispered into the darkness.

"Professor?"

The doe bowed her head then vanished as a black-robed figure stepped out of the darkness.

"Potter," Snape said.


Now these two can actually talk to each other for the first time in their lives and the rest of the events can play out in all sorts of ways from this point. They can unfold essentially as they did in canon or similarly to the way Siobhan suggests - which I personally would have preferred.

While it was warm and fuzzy to have Lily and the Marauders spirits tagging along with Harry as he went to his death, just think of the intensity of Snape accompanying him instead. It would have made Harry's trek into the woods even harder and Snape's wouldn't have been much easier as he escorted Lily's son to his death. On that walk, Snape would have truly understood how brave and selfless Harry is and he would have seen Lily in her son at last. Which would have led naturally to Snape and Harry's final words to each other:

"I'm sorry."
"I know."

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Edited by - Theowyn on 08/30/2007 12:10:51
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Siobhan
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Posted - 08/30/2007 :  12:16:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Now these two can actually talk to each other for the first time in their lives and the rest of the events can play out in all sorts of ways from this point.
Yeah, we've been waiting for the talking to begin for years, though. I think I would probably have dropped dead from shock if that had happened.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 08/30/2007 :  17:21:41  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Krabat
One more comment to the way JK chose to present Harry with all the facts. I think she just chose the easiest way out. Both the use of a pensieve as well as the obligatory meeting with Dumbledore explaining everything were not very original. I was really curious before having read the book how a confrontation between Harry and Snape would play out, because so many problems would have to be adressed (enough for two whole books, I think. Don't you, Theo?). JK chose to avoid difficulties and use Snape simply as instruction manual for Harry. A pity.

She chose the easiest way out on so many things in this story. Harry didn't have to search for the horcruxes, he just read Voldie's mind. And this after a whole book of being told he must occlude his mind. I find it interesting that after setting Hermione and Dumbledore up as the voices of reason, she chose to have Harry's bull-headed stubborness in both HBP and DH work out great. I guess she felt the need to make Harry heroically decisive--but it was sloppy and contrived.

quote:
Yeah, we've been waiting for the talking to begin for years, though. I think I would probably have dropped dead from shock if that had happened.
I think my family could have resusitated me, though.

The quietness you mention of HP readers is interesting, Theo. I have noticed it in my children who went to the midnight book release with me. My 14 yo son who usually wants to talk everything to death has said very little. I'll have to look for a chance to quiz him more closely.

And all the great scene ideas are making me tear up. I can't wait for these stories.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2007 :  01:00:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

quote:
Originally posted by Krabat
One more comment to the way JK chose to present Harry with all the facts. I think she just chose the easiest way out.
She chose the easiest way out on so many things in this story. Harry didn't have to search for the horcruxes, he just read Voldie's mind. And this after a whole book of being told he must occlude his mind. I find it interesting that after setting Hermione and Dumbledore up as the voices of reason, she chose to have Harry's bull-headed stubborness in both HBP and DH work out great. I guess she felt the need to make Harry heroically decisive--but it was sloppy and contrived.
Yes, it was. You bring up an interesting point about Harry, though, which we haven't really touched on. How should Harry's story arc have played out? The character conflicts JKR gave us were:

1) Harry coming to grips with DD's dark past and choosing to trust him.
2) Harry choosing to die.
3) Harry forgiving Snape - though this was more of a side note.

How could Harry's story in DH have been changed for the better?

quote:
The quietness you mention of HP readers is interesting, Theo. I have noticed it in my children who went to the midnight book release with me. My 14 yo son who usually wants to talk everything to death has said very little. I'll have to look for a chance to quiz him more closely.
Let us know what he says. Neither of my boys was impressed with the book.

quote:
And all the great scene ideas are making me tear up. I can't wait for these stories.
And they will get written. Thank goodness for fanfiction.

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Krabat
Giddy

Germany
40 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2007 :  03:36:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
The character conflicts JKR gave us were:

1) Harry coming to grips with DD's dark past and choosing to trust him.
2) Harry choosing to die.
3) Harry forgiving Snape - though this was more of a side note.

How could Harry's story in DH have been changed for the better?



What about Harry hurling around all those Unforgivables? I read in some interview that JKR wanted to show that Harry is only human, and one of his weaknesses is his anger. One conflict could/should have been Harry realising that he is capable of doing wrong/evil. I always thought he would have to deal with the realisation that he acted the same as Snape in HBP when he fed DD the potion in the cave, although he of course couldn't be sure that the potion would kill DD. Still, even the words JKR used to describe Harry's feelings in that moment were the same as she used to describe Snape on the tower. But Harry thinks of himself as the ggod and of Snape as the bad guy.
Throughout the series Harry worries about his similarities to Voldemort, but in DH he has no problems at all using the Unforgivables in any setting. Shouldn't he have a problem with that, at least after using them successfully for the first time? I would think that a realistic conflict would have been to deal with the fact that there is not only right and wrong, that people including oneself are not purely evil or good, and perhaps even the ethical conflict of what means are justified by the end. And again Snape could have been used to illustrate every facet of that conflict.
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