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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  08:19:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eeyore

And actually, if Moody has arranged for Snape to be out of the house for a while, why doesn't he just go in and do the search himself? Why push that off on Harry?


I'm curious about that too. Am I missing something?

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aguila
Giddy

7 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  13:45:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eeyore




And actually, if Moody has arranged for Snape to be out of the house for a while, why doesn't he just go in and do the search himself?


So it just didn't work for me that Harry would even consider trying to gather evidence against Snape.






That one bothered me too. Why would Moody want that Harry does it? Is it possible that Moody does not like that Harry and Snape share a close relationship. But I really donīt know.

And I agree with Eyore that Harry wouldnīt just try to gather evidence against Snape. But I understand that he doubts Snape after seeing him sneeking away and Snape is not really helpful by not saying anything.
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  14:38:19  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Eeyore, you have said better than I was able to what was bothering me about Chapter 7. I'm not sure Harry would have been so ready to help the Ministry--especially not when it involved spying on Snape. And he knows that Remus has refused to do so. I also agree about Moody not being all that gung-ho for the ministry.

Now I know, Theo, you are saying that Moody sees this as a moral obligation to find the murderer, and I see how you set up Harry to do this in the hopes that Snape would be exonerated. I can see how you want this to work, but something is still slightly missing in the set-up. Harry accepted that Snape needed to kill the 6 in the previous book as an act of war. Given how easily he accepted that previously, I would have expected him to say that maybe Dumbledore has him taking out the enemy as a special-ops agent.

It's not going to affect my enjoyment of the rest of the story, but I really hope that we don't have to deal with Harry spying on Snape for long. [:I]

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  18:25:50  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Was the Snape POV just there to show his innocence against Moody's charges, given that he didn't seem to be hiding anything we didn't already know? Given the lack of revelation, Moody must be the one hiding something - given his OOC actions. The HP should tell them both to go jump and refuse to be involved in their intrigue. Really, what are they going to do to him? Kill him? Puhlease.

Harry owns Grimmauld Place, right? So he can evict anyone he wants? Also, it doesn't make spying illegal, which is fortunate for evil!Moody who is so concerned about laws.
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  18:35:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do we really need Snape's point of view? If it is there to let us know that Snape isn't the murderer, wouldn't it be better to let that tension build a little longer by not telling us. Without his POV we are nearly as unsure as Harry. It would leave us with the same question of right and wrong. Is it important that we should believe Snape innocent at this point even though Harry is not sure?

I know the realtionship being confused and at cross purposes needs to be re-established, but is there another way to show it or another time to do so?

I still want to kick Moody in his good shin.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  01:08:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi guys! Okay, let me see if I can answer some of this.

First off, Moody is not working for the Ministry here. In fact, he is quite pointedly not working for them, as they simply want to ignore these deaths. So the situation here is not at all like the one with Scrimgour in HBP. Scrimgour was self-serving and dishonest. He wanted to use Harry's fame and reputation to bolster the Ministry in its ineffectual and corrupt activities.

Moody wants to catch a murderer.

These are fundamentally different goals and Moody's is perfectly honorable. In real life the police infiltrate gangs to spy on them and catch criminals. They use stakeouts and informants to gather evidence. Moody is operating in the same spirit.

Wizards don't seem to have Miranda laws and I don't think asking Harry to spy on Snape is out of line in a society that throws people in prison for life without trial or lets Dementors suck out people's souls. I'm not saying I condone any of this, but I think Moody's behavior is consistent with Wizarding justice. And really, if Moody were after Mundungus Fletcher for these crimes, would we blame him? Would we blame Harry for helping?

As to Harry, himself, yes, Moody has put him in a bad spot - and Siobhan you are more than welcome to kick him for that. It's the same sort of thing Moody did in HPEW when he encouraged Harry to spy on Voldemort through Legilimency. Moody, perhaps more than most, treats Harry as an adult and expects him to pull his weight, and Moody doesn't care about Harry's sensibilities. Still he didn't go to Harry first. He's harranged Remus about this half the summer and has only turned to Harry as a last resort because he feels that Harry is the only one in a position to really do the job.

I will note here that Moody hasn't arranged for Snape to be out of the house. He has simply been told about it. As he tells Harry, "Even Snape can’t keep everything he does a secret."

I will also tell you that if Moody could be at 12GP to do the spying himself he would. However, this isn't because he wants the credit for catching Snape in some wrong doing. I don't see canon!Moody as being at all interested in getting credit for anything or making points with anyone. Mine definitely isn't interested in that sort of thing. The simple fact is that Moody can't be at 12GP while Snape is gone and you'll discover why in chapter 8.

As to Snape's pov, I am curious why some of you believe it is there to show Snape's innocense when it actually doesn't do that at all - at least it shouldn't. The whole murder issue isn't even on Snape's mind. Snape's pov is included here to show what is and so that future events won't come out of nowhere to completely blindside you.

Snape is feeling very guilty and has hardly talked to to Harry about anything personal all summer. The reason - which is supposed to be the whole point here - is that he is convinced that Harry can't really forgive him for his part in J&L's deaths. Harry's comment about him being "an expert on guilt" cut deep and confirmed this belief, so when Harry starts in grilling him, Snape jumps to conclusions about Harry's motivations based on his own expectations.

Why is this importatant? Because of the above-mentioned future events, of course. But also because everyone here (Moody, Harry, Snape) is making assumptions - and this trend is going to continue. Really, this is something that has always been a problem in HP. We've just never gotten such a a close look at the process because we usually see things from Harry's perspective and only discover the consequences of all the misjudgements at the end. In HPCS we'll get a bit closer look at how these assumptions bump up against each other and cause consequences that - as always - could have been avoided if these people would only talk to one another.

Now I have a question for all of you: If Moody is right and Snape is murdering DEs, would you forgive him, given all that he has suffered and the fact that he's helping the war effort? Or would you take a strict "murder is always wrong" stance as Moody does?

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Edited by - Theowyn on 06/26/2006 01:38:57
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  01:36:19  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I know it's the question you want answered, but it's not really the question that any of us are asking. Moody is not being honourable in his methods of trying to find fault with Snape, so he is not the paradigm of righteousness that should be offered penance. Two wrongs do not make a right.

edit: speeling

Edited by - MrBen on 06/26/2006 01:39:36
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  01:45:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

I know it's the question you want answered, but it's not really the question that any of us are asking. Moody is not being honourable in his methods of trying to find fault with Snape, so he is not the paradigm of righteousness that should be offered penance. Two wrongs do not make a right.

edit: speeling


Okay Ben, let me see if I understand what you're saying here. Because Moody's methods are manipulative and dishonorable you're going to look the other way if Snape is the murderer - i.e. - you wouldn't want to see him handed over to the corrupt Ministry and punished. Have I got this right?

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  05:37:23  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

I know it's the question you want answered, but it's not really the question that any of us are asking. Moody is not being honourable in his methods of trying to find fault with Snape, so he is not the paradigm of righteousness that should be offered penance. Two wrongs do not make a right.

edit: speeling



Who's offering penance to whom, Ben? I don't understand your comment at all.

I think it's an interesting point that Harry's grappling with - would he really want to turn Snape in if it turned out he was having happy jaunts around the countryside a-killing as he goes? Of course Harry's first response to someone he wants to impress and who works in law enforcement (and may be in a position to employ him or help him in his quest to become an Auror) is Yes! Of course I would!

But then again, the DEs are helping Voldie, and Voldie wants to kill Harry, and I see Harry feeling justified in letting Snape carry on, for the greater good, of course.

It's a lovely tricksy situation and I'm sure Theo's having loads of fun playing with it. And now I shall shut up for fear of letting future events out of the bag.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  06:13:55  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Handed over to the ministry? Since when have they ever played by the Ministry's rules and laws? The Ministry would have them all under lock and key if they knew what the members of The Order were doing. Don't for a moment think that they would be absolved by those who enforce the law unless the ends justified the means.

They're in the middle of a guerilla war and every one of them is in the grey. Some may be more white and some more black, but what is right is not what the law says. I'm sure the law says don't kill. Voldemort shouldn't be killed then. Yes, he's a wanted man - and he's scary - but there's no official bounty on his head as stated in official Ministry documentation. Citizens are not allowed to go and kill people who have murdered. Oh, but Voldie is evil and there's a prophesy. Well, that's different. You go right ahead and kill him then! Someone who heard voices said that you were destined to kill, so that's fine.

Moody uses The Ministry to justify what he's manipulating The HP to do, but he doesn't serve them. Snape murders, but he's not doing it for The Order. They're both wrong and that's why the question is irrelevant.
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  06:26:10  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Oh, and I think that means that while The Order have no official policy, anything goes.
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  07:52:48  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I don't think the Order are complete vigilantes. I think if Moody found out that Snape was murdering everyone, he'd do his best to get the Ministry to try Snape and then probably send him to Azkaban. I don't think he'd take on Snape himself.

I think the reason I don't understand Ben's comment is because I don't understand these black+white right/wrong issues. Moody is wrong and Snape might be wrong. But isn't the Ministry wrong a lot of the time? Wasn't Dumbledore sometimes wrong, and Remus wrong and Sirius wrong and Harry wrong and gosh darn everyone wrong? At points, they've all worked outside 'the rules' (whatever you might define them to be). But there's still some semblance of law and order, and the rule of law in the wizarding world. I don't see the Order as anything goes - I don't see the Ministry that way. We don't really know enough about how Voldie deals with his DEs to know whether anything goes with them either - given that they know not to kill Harry because Voldie wants him, anything doesn't seem to go there either.

Anyway, that is a very long-winded way of saying I think the issue of whether Snape would be 'right' or 'less wrong' if he were murdering the DEs than if it were someone else killing somebody else is a very piquant one. To write it off as 'everyone's wrong' is a bit of a cop-out.

[I'd like to reserve the right to re-argue this point in a completely different way if it turns out that I have misunderstood Ben yet again.[dead]]

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Edited by - Myf on 06/26/2006 07:54:55
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  12:43:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn

As to Snape's pov, I am curious why some of you believe it is there to show Snape's innocense when it actually doesn't do that at all - at least it shouldn't. The whole murder issue isn't even on Snape's mind. Snape's pov is included here to show what is and so that future events won't come out of nowhere to completely blindside you.
So say Snape is going out murdering DE's. iI doesn't at all weigh on his conscience to the point that he completely misses the possiblity of a connection with what Harry is on about and the murders-- even though Snape is well aware of Harry's recent interlude with the bottle. If we are not to get the idea that Snape is innocent, then perhaps this passage is somewhat misleading. Snape knows that Harry is aware of his nightly outings. He knows that Harry has death and murder on his mind. Why would that not ring a bell in Snape's ear that perhaps Harry is thinking of something more recent than something that happened when he was a baby-- especailly when he acknowledges that Harry has seemed to seek a closer relationship with him rather than shunning him.

Oh, and yes, I'd be inclined to let Snape's murders go. I'm not saying Snape is Mr. Virtuous, but if he killed these DE's then he alone knows why and why those particular DE's. Perhaps Snape is the most horrible of killers, but I'd want to know why-- how he justifies it-- before condemning him.

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  13:42:12  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I think Myf's missed the thrust of my argument.

Theowyn bought up the law as the line between the right or wrong action of killing Death Eaters. The Order have had to pick and choose which laws they'll obey in their goal, but they haven't actually defined which ones. You're implying that there should just be a general sense of what's right, a sort of feeling.

If there was the opportunity to steal or destroy the enemy's property, would that be okay? Do The Order have a shoot first policy, and is there a line between killing and murdering? Do they need to identify themselves first to assuage moral queasiness? Laws are there so that people who obey them benefit. If you don't like the laws, you disobey them. Those who benefit from the laws will try you by them - and so it is between The Ministry's laws and those of The Order.

But until The Order decide where their morality lies, all they have is a goal. Moody needs to stop trying to support a system that actively weakens them. If The Order don't mind the murder of Death Eater's, perhaps he should leave. However, if murder of anyone is considered wrong, Snape should leave and forfeit their protection.

There are no laws, which is why everyone is wrong (and by the same token everyone is right).
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  13:45:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

So say Snape is going out murdering DE's. iI doesn't at all weigh on his conscience to the point that he completely misses the possiblity of a connection with what Harry is on about and the murders-- even though Snape is well aware of Harry's recent interlude with the bottle. If we are not to get the idea that Snape is innocent, then perhaps this passage is somewhat misleading. Snape knows that Harry is aware of his nightly outings. He knows that Harry has death and murder on his mind. Why would that not ring a bell in Snape's ear that perhaps Harry is thinking of something more recent than something that happened when he was a baby-- especailly when he acknowledges that Harry has seemed to seek a closer relationship with him rather than shunning him.

Hmm... I probably have to be a bit careful in how I answer this.

First off, the whole issue with J&L's deaths is recent. It's barely been 2 months since Snape's confession to Harry at the end of HPEW and it's really not possible to overstate how traumatic that was for Snape. That unhealed wound that's been festering all these years has been ripped open and Snape can no longer hide from his feelings by burying them under layers of hate and blame for others. Being a very controlled person, he doesn't often show this tempest of emotions that is roiling inside him, but it is intense and having to deal with Harry exacerbates it. I can't really go into a lot of discussion about Snape's relationship with Harry because that is a major subject of the story, but suffice it to say that nothing else comes close to touching Snape emotionally the way Harry does. Not even killing.

Snape has killed in the past when it was necessary and for the greater good. He has never enjoyed it or been proud of it, but neither has he agonized over it. It is safe to say that whoever is killing the DEs isn't agonizing over it either. This person must have justified these acts in their own mind or they wouldn't have committed them, right? So they don't have a guilty conscience that's going to be provoked by anything other than a direct and obvious reference to the DE murders which Harry is not making here.

It is also important to understand that Snape has absolutely no reason to believe that Harry is even aware of the DE murders (though he and the rest of the OotP, but more on that in ch9) so it would never occur to him that Harry might be accusing him of them.

Therefore it is really not possible to tell from this scene whether or not Snape is the murderer. He might be or he might not be - and you are free to interpret his response to Harry however you like. Just keep in mind that there are no certainties implied here.

Myf, yes I'm having a wonderful time exploring this issue. :)

Ben, I have to agree with Myf that simply writing off the whole issue is a bit cynical. However, I do respect the principle of "let he who is without sin throw the first stone".


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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
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Posted - 06/26/2006 :  14:12:36  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Now I have a question for all of you: If Moody is right and Snape is murdering DEs, would you forgive him, given all that he has suffered and the fact that he's helping the war effort? Or would you take a strict "murder is always wrong" stance as Moody does?


I would have no problem with Snape KILLING these death eaters if he is doing it with Dumbledore's knowledge in order to win the war, rather than because he is mad at his treatment when found to be a spy. It has always bothered me when Harry and others talk about him killing Voldemort as "murder." The wizarding world is at war and Harry in particular is being stalked by a homicidal maniac. I can't see how he can help killing Voldemort as an act of self-defense or war. I don't particularly like assasination--and any government that uses it has to be REALLY careful--but I personally think it would have been a good thing if we could have succeeded in assasinating Hitler during WWII. So if Snape is the wizarding world's equivalent of a one-man special ops team, I say more power to him!

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  15:18:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

The Order have had to pick and choose which laws they'll obey in their goal, but they haven't actually defined which ones...

... until The Order decide where their morality lies, all they have is a goal. Moody needs to stop trying to support a system that actively weakens them. If The Order don't mind the murder of Death Eater's, perhaps he should leave. However, if murder of anyone is considered wrong, Snape should leave and forfeit their protection.

There are no laws, which is why everyone is wrong (and by the same token everyone is right).

Thank you, Ben. I understand you better now and you bring up a very salient point - one I actually bring up in chapter 9 so I won't say too much about it just yet.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  21:43:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Theo: Snape has killed in the past when it was necessary and for the greater good. He has never enjoyed it or been proud of it, but neither has he agonized over it.
It's the necessary and greater good part that would make or break the murder angle for me. No, he doesn't agonise over any of the deaths he's been responsible for but James and Lily's.
quote:
It is safe to say that whoever is killing the DEs isn't agonizing over it either. This person must have justified these acts in their own mind or they wouldn't have committed them, right? So they don't have a guilty conscience that's going to be provoked by anything other than a direct and obvious reference to the DE murders which Harry is not making here.
That's not necessarilly true of everyone, perhaps Snape, though, and you are writing the story so you'd be in a better possition to say what the mindset of the killer is. However in a more general sense (mine as a reader), a person can set out on a killing spree for all out revenge, and be disgusted with themselves for doing it all the same, just as soldiers who are ordered to kill or kill in self defense can still feel the horror of the act afterwards. I think the problem I'm running into here is that of general vs. specific. If we as readers are meant to respond on the general level, then Snape's POV is troublesome-- it can lead to misunderstanding of intent. If we are meant to respond to it more specifically, once the story is complete it may work better.

Hasn't Snape noticed that Harry has been reading the Daily Prophet at breakfast?

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  02:48:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

I think the problem I'm running into here is that of general vs. specific. If we as readers are meant to respond on the general level, then Snape's POV is troublesome-- it can lead to misunderstanding of intent.

For myself speaking generally, I think it is most common for a vigilante - which is how Moody characterizes the killer - to feel justified in killing. This isn't some reluctant soldier being ordered to kill. This person (or possibly persons ) is acting of their own free will either to oppose LV or exact revenge or whatnot.

However, it is entirely possible that this sort of killer might feel deep guilt or run through cycles where they feel justified one day and guilty the next. It is perfectly okay if this is the assumption you make so long as you realize that the killer doesn't have to feel this way. It's all right for there to be different understandings of what is going on here because that propagates the uncertainty which is, after all, the point.

quote:
Hasn't Snape noticed that Harry has been reading the Daily Prophet at breakfast?

Of course, but he assumes that Harry is reading about the war, the news of which takes up the majority of the ink.

One thing it is important to remember here is that Moody confronted Harry about Snape the day after the attack in London. Consequently, everyone who notices Harry's changed behavior and emotions is putting it down to his having killed MacFarlane - and this is certainly true of Snape.

Under any other circumstances, yes, Snape would be far more suspicious of Harry's sudden change in attitude. But because of the timing he believes that, "... the debacle in London had jolted Potter into taking a long hard look at what he could and could not condone as acceptable behavior, not only in himself but in others as well and perhaps most particularly in his Potions Master." This is what's throwing off Snape's usually accurate instincts.

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Edited by - Theowyn on 06/27/2006 02:50:42
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
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Posted - 06/27/2006 :  11:09:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
For myself speaking generally, I think it is most common for a vigilante - which is how Moody characterizes the killer - to feel justified in killing. This isn't some reluctant soldier being ordered to kill. This person (or possibly persons ) is acting of their own free will either to oppose LV or exact revenge or whatnot.

But we don't know that Moody is right. He could easily be wrong or paranoid. So as far as we know the mind set of the killer is unknown-- could be anything and feeling justified in killing is not exclusive of feeling guilt. Heck, Arthur could have gone off the deep end and started killing DE's in vengeance for Molly's death. For that matter any of the Weasleys (Percy springs to mind) could be responsible. So the whole thing is wide open. Snape's seeming lack of concern about any of this is what's odd-- not for his relationship with Harry (constantly at cross purposes), but that he who has been connected to these people seems unaware that anyone is thinking he is doing the killing. For someone with his background to be blind or unconcerned about this, especially given his definition of murder, is a huge oversight on his part. That kind of oversight could easily cost him his life and he still has business to attend to.

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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
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Posted - 06/27/2006 :  11:19:33  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Theo, it seems that you were using that particular chapter to set up some things that we aren't aware of yet, and we need to be patient to get to the pay-offs. So I guess I'll just wait and see.

myf brought up the vigilante aspect and said that the Order isn't strictly one, so I looked up the word and came up with this definitition in my Webster's:

quote:
vigilance committee: a group of persons organized without legal authorization professedly to keep order and punish crime when ordinary law enforcement agencies apparently fail to do so


That, to me, sounds like a perfect definition of the function of the Order, both in canon and in thanon. But as Ben says, it isn't clear in either one just what the rules are for the Order. It's too vague to know whether Snape going out and picking off Death Eaters one by one is within the acceptable limits of Order rules or not. That obviously is not OK with Moody, but no one else seems too fussed about it. And that really is the problem with groups that operate outside the law--unless they are all held to a very noble high standard of conduct, they can easily fall into the problem of this one vigilante who is taking it upon himself to rid the world of Death Eaters. It's really that a person acting alone can so easily turn into some killing machine that wouldn't happen if he were still acting with the group's knowledge.

And we have to wonder--is the person acting alone, or on Dumbledore's orders, which would throw a whole different light on it. Dumbledore, after all, had people working for him that no one else knew of. I also have a problem with political assassinations--very sticky morals there, and I don't think they ever get satisfactorally resolved.

Eeyore

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Theowyn
Looney

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Posted - 06/27/2006 :  16:39:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

But we don't know that Moody is right. He could easily be wrong or paranoid... So the whole thing is wide open.

Exactly.

quote:
Snape's seeming lack of concern about any of this is what's odd-- not for his relationship with Harry (constantly at cross purposes), but that he who has been connected to these people seems unaware that anyone is thinking he is doing the killing.

This gets addressed in chapters 8 an 9. (Yes, Eeyore, chapter 7 is the first in a 3-part story arc.) But it's important to distinguish between Snape's expectations of Harry and his expectations of others. Just because Snape doesn't think that Harry is referring to the DE killings doesn't mean he is unaware of Moody's suspicions. If you read chapters 1, 2 and 6 with this issue in mind, I think you will see that this has been an underlying source of conflict between Moody, Snape and the OotP all summer. It's just Harry who's clueless and doesn't understand the significance of certain comments and conversations he overhears.

Re: the Vigilante nature of the OotP: I agree that this is a workable definition. Another way to think of them is as an underground resistance organization. However we define the group, the individual members are an ecclectic mix - and nobility is definitely not a criteria for admitance. Just look at Mundungus! DD's only standard seems to be commitment to defeating LV followed by loyalty to himself. Otherwise, anything goes. Not only can this lead to a loner acting on his own, it allows for intense personal conflict among the members. Look how much Severus and Sirius hated each other. The problem is that DD is far too hands-off and doesn't curtail any of this.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

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Posted - 06/28/2006 :  10:38:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry to see your condition is not improving SunsetHill (she's now Addled)-- on the other hand welcome to the Looney Bin!

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sunsethill
Confunded

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Posted - 06/28/2006 :  13:32:06  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Sorry to see your condition is not improving SunsetHill (she's now Addled)-- on the other hand welcome to the Looney Bin!



Oooh, yea! I have kind of been watching for when I would get sicker, but then I missed it. I think this is the first board I have ever been able to move past the complete "newbie" category!

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sunsethill
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Posted - 06/29/2006 :  10:45:27  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Over at Diagon Alley, I complimented Theowyn's portrayal of Ron and made the comment that one's ability to appreciate Ron is fairly indicative of one's understanding of Rowling. Of course, I couldn't support this when challenged, so imagine my glee when I ran across a comment with JKR support at peachespig's LJ http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2784839/13/. (Sorry, don't know how to make it just say "here" in blue on this site.) Anyway, the relevant portion was this:
quote:
I just have to comment on Jo reportedly saying she thinks Ron is more popular than Harry. Hee, hee. No, I don't think it's true, but I do find it amusing. It reminds me of that interview where Jo said how glad she was to discover Steve Kloves's favorite character was Hermione - because Ron was so "real easy" to love she assumed it would be him. She clearly assumes he's a kind of universally lovable guy, despite him having been the focus of such dislike from some. I've heard from a lot of people who don't like Ron things like "But what has he done? Harry's done this, Hermione's done that...." I suspect for JKR, loving Ron is more about who he is than what he's done.





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Bee
Mediwizard

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Posted - 06/29/2006 :  17:19:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How can people not love Ron? I know many people don't, but... buh?

Apologies for being completely OT.

Ooh, today is Thursday, no?

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Eeyore
Barmy

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Posted - 06/29/2006 :  21:43:21  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Ron is just Ron, what's not to love?

Yes, today is Thursday but we still have another week before the next chapter. *sigh*

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Theowyn
Looney

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Posted - 06/29/2006 :  23:51:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chapter 8 is one of Myf's favorites.

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sunsethill
Confunded

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Posted - 06/30/2006 :  10:42:44  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn

Chapter 8 is one of Myf's favorites.



Yes, but is that a GOOD thing or a BAD thing? I find myself wishing away whole weeks of my life anymore--and I'm too old to be doing that! Need Snape fix now!!

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Theowyn
Looney

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Posted - 06/30/2006 :  12:33:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill

quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn

Chapter 8 is one of Myf's favorites.

Yes, but is that a GOOD thing or a BAD thing?

Lol! Well, it means that she thinks the writing in this chapter is above average - which is definitely a good thing. As to the plot, I'll leave it to you guys to decide.

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