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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2007 :  10:21:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oooops! Can't read this yet as I've not read my chapter!

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gimu
Addled

Ireland
209 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2007 :  13:48:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great chapter! Unfortunately I am a bit uninventive so I will just have to go with U-NO-POO's title "If you want something done..." I think it fits in with both major parts of the chapter. Then again, it is jumping forward a little, assuming that Snape will go to V's HQ and assuming that HP will continue trying to find info on Voldemorts immortality (which I don't doubt that he will).
Thinking... ... ...
sorry - nothing springs to mind - perhaps something to do with transformation since thats what Harry needed to do with the Werewolf, and Snape is no longer apparently going killing people, but going to meet someone to do something positive...
I'm really enjoying the story in any case.
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2007 :  17:29:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by U-No-Poo

“Skiving snack boxes,” he said with an unmistakable note of exasperation in his voice.
I was CRYING with mirth . Beautiful!

I'm so glad you enjoyed my reference to Skiving Snack Boxes. Snape has never appreciated Dumbledore's whimsical sense of humor.

quote:
Ooh, nice to see what Lucius has been up to. BTW, does that potion make it harder for Lucius to recollect his conversations with Snape?
In a way, yes. He knows what they've talked about, but he doesn't remember, if that makes any sense. It's like I know how to do long division, but I don't remember learning it. Since Legilimency works on feelings and memories rather than abstract thoughts, Lucius can know that he has offered to help Snape, but as long as he can't picture the conversation in his mind, that knowledge is safe from LV.

quote:
As to titles...
Know Thy Enemy Which is all Harry wants (but still... arrgghhh!) and what Snape and DD need to do.
Brain Teaser Bellatrix has Snape stumped and hopefully Harry will do the same to Voldie
If you want something done... If Dumbledore and Lucius will not let on, Harry and Snape will have to take matters into their own hands.

Very clever ideas! I see that Gimu likes number three. Does anyone else have a suggestion or want to add their support to one of the titles already mentioned?


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Edited by - Theowyn on 01/15/2007 20:20:14
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2007 :  18:20:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great ideas for titles. I can throw in only "Deceptions and Designs" as a possiblitiy. It works on many levels and pulls in the three word title scheme used in some of the previous chapters.

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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2007 :  02:28:33  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not good with titles, so I'll leave that to everyone else.

I just realized that I hadn't made any comment about the chapter, Theo. I read it when you first sent it out, but I was so tired and preoccupied, that I needed a chance to re-read it, which I finally did. I quite enjoyed it. I was afraid that Lucius was going to turn out to be too nice, but it doesn't look like it after all. Interesting idea, that potion.

When you think about wizards in HP, they are a very manipulative bunch, aren't they? Someone brought that up on another forum--how all the ways they modify memories, and use a truth serum, polyjuice potion to deceive others about their identity, etc., is really pretty awful. So at least Lucius knew what he was doing.

I find the lessons in Dumbledore's "garden" quite different than I had imagined when the idea of Harry fighting Voldemort mentally first came up in HPEW. It's not where I would have gone at all, but I'm enjoying it. You've brought up a whole aspect of what capabilities our minds have if we only knew how to use them.

Eeyore

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2007 :  13:27:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eeyore

I quite enjoyed it. I was afraid that Lucius was going to turn out to be too nice, but it doesn't look like it after all. Interesting idea, that potion.

I'm glad you enjoyed the chapter, Eeyore. And no, Lucius is definitely not nice. He's out for himself, but he's predictable in that and Severus knows how to use it to his own advantage.

quote:
When you think about wizards in HP, they are a very manipulative bunch, aren't they?
Absolutely! It's a wonder any of them manage to trust each other at all.

quote:
I find the lessons in Dumbledore's "garden" quite different than I had imagined when the idea of Harry fighting Voldemort mentally first came up in HPEW. It's not where I would have gone at all, but I'm enjoying it. You've brought up a whole aspect of what capabilities our minds have if we only knew how to use them.

I'm glad that this element of the story is working. The whole spy-biz is fun to write, but the 'mental war' is the heart of the story and I have to navigate uncharted waters here. From the beginning, I knew that this battle, as I've envisioned it, would have to be conducted on the field of the subconscious. For one thing, I need a larger landscape than the one-on-one intimacy of Legilimency or possession could provide. More importantly, I absolutely need to be down at the level of the naked soul - the reason why will become clearer as we go along. Of course this involves a lot of symbolism, so it can be tricky. I'm glad that it seems to be coming across properly so far. Hopefully, it will continue to do so.

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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  16:17:57  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Theo, have you ever read any of the books by Charles Williams? He was another of the Inklings--wrote in the 1930s. I finally finished the third book, in what is called a "loose" trilogy. The characters don't carry over, nor the general story, but they are definitely connected. (The books in order in my bound volume are: Descent into Hell, Many Dimensions, and War in Heaven.)

Anyway, they are very much about mental/spiritual connections and how that affects our lives. War in Heaven was the easiest of the three to read--the most straight-forward. But the other two have some very interesting points as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that JKR had at one point read one or all three of these books. One has to do with a stone that gives life and healing to the bearer if said bearer is of pure heart, but brings devastation to those who want it only for their own greed and purposes (Philosopher's Stone correlations, there); Descent into Hell (full of dopplegangers, like we see throughout all the Harry Potter books) and War in Heaven (search for power versus the protection of all things good) both explore the psychological aspects of what happens to us when we choose to live selfishly, without regard for doing what is right. The selfish, power-hungry sorts don't fare too well in Williams's books, to say the least--just as they don't come off ahead in any of the HP books (or in HPEW, or from what we see so far, in HPCS).

So the whole idea that we are delving into Dumbledore's mind, with the prospect of Harry eventually plunging into Voldemort's mind as a way to defeat him, seems to resonate with the books I just read.

Eeyore

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  16:58:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Those sound interesting, Eeyore. I'll go search my library. Though I really should be getting back to Order of the Phoenix.
Hmmmph. Library has only Descent into Hell.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  01:41:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, I've never even heard of those books, Eeyore. I'll definitely try to hunt them up. Thanks!

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Edited by - Theowyn on 02/01/2007 01:41:54
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  04:31:40  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Guys, stay tuned for ch19. It's a doozie. I loved it. :)

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
Professor Stephen Hawking
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  11:06:18  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yippee! I feel bad not commenting on chapter 18, which I remember enjoying--but now I can't remember why! I'm ready for some indepth Snape-Harry interaction. I've really been missing that element. I know it's coming and I am trying to be patient. But, after all, it was HPEW that began my addiction for Snape-Harry mentoring fics.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  13:06:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A good, rousing, out and out argument between the two would be lovely-- one where they both lose control and say what they have been thinking all this time. After all that seems to be about the only way to get these two to communicate at all. I'm looking forward to one, but doubt it will happen so soon. Harry hasn't been nearly stupid enough to make Severus lose it. A near death experience or a serious injury or a capture/rescue is needed first, preferrably one that has Severus as a witness or actor in. I think of it as the good-shaking-of-the-pop-bottle-before-twisting-the-top scenario.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  17:03:39  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

A good, rousing, out and out argument between the two would be lovely-- one where they both lose control and say what they have been thinking all this time. After all that seems to be about the only way to get these two to communicate at all. I'm looking forward to one, but doubt it will happen so soon. Harry hasn't been nearly stupid enough to make Severus lose it. A near death experience or a serious injury or a capture/rescue is needed first, preferrably one that has Severus as a witness or actor in. I think of it as the good-shaking-of-the-pop-bottle-before-twisting-the-top scenario.


Oh, yes. All of those sound good to me. And you are exactly right that it seemed to take knock-down-drag-out fights for the two to make progress last year. I must admit I just want to see them interacting more. And, of course, I want to see Snape in muggle clothes again.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  03:37:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All of your wishes will come to pass, I swear... even the Muggle clothes. For now though, I hope you enjoy ch19 which should be arriving in your in-boxes any time now.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  11:05:53  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn

All of your wishes will come to pass, I swear... even the Muggle clothes. For now though, I hope you enjoy ch19 which should be arriving in your in-boxes any time now.


And I was ALREADY smiling from Chapter 19! Yippee!!

As Myf said, Chapter 19 was a doozie! I usually print them off and read them over breakfast. I was so tense in the first part of the chapter that I don't think I was digesting correctly. You did a wonderful job making us worried for Snape (even though we knew he had to get out of there safely.) His method for getting out did a beautiful job of showing us just how smart and cunning he is. And you did a great job showing us just how much he dreaded it and just how much it took for him to get the information.

Dumbledore was also portrayed excellently. It came very close to the scene in HBP where Harry first begins to feel that Dumbledore is disappointed in him--only on steroids. Which it needed to be given what Harry has done. I also loved how you made the mirror so important and brought back the clue of the whispering at night. That SO fits Kreacher. This kind of creativity in plotting around canon facts is one of the things I love about your writing, Theo. Another example of this is your continued use of Malfoy concern about family that we first really saw in HBP.

The kids are also well-done. They are obviously maturing, but you showed that they are still prone to silly errors due to their lack of experience.

Snape's reaction in the end was perfectly in character--and now the ball is in Harry's court. He will need to do some grovelling. I hope that Harry gets to his grovelling quickly rather than wallowing in his misery for a while.

Now a little point--on page 5 you have Snape walking by two "brassieres". Now why would they have women's undergarments sitting on pedestals next to the gates? Are we in for a fanfictional "Dark Revel"? I know you mean the metal things that you burn stuff in--and for the life of me I can't think how to actually spell that--but my dictionary only gives the meaning of undergarments for what you wrote.

I loved the description of Voldemort's hide-out and the necessity of having a Dark Mark to get in there. I've always thought they had to have several more uses than we've seen in canon.

Anyway, I loved this chapter so much that I didn't want to be selfish and not review again. Thanks for all your hard work to give us enjoyment. Snape point of view!

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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  11:54:59  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Ditto everything SH said. About the women's undergarments/things to burn things in--my dictionary only has the one meaning also. Perhaps there is a different spelling or a word that will make it more clear just what those things are. (I'm thinking of all your SQ readers, some of whom are much younger, and will be totally confused.)

One more technicality--on page 8, there is a error with the word "lung"--I'm sure you meant to put "lunge".

Mere piffly things, though. I loved this chapter. I was going to go to bed but thought I would check my email just one more time and there was Chapter 19! So I got a snack, fixed a pot of tea, and thoroughly enjoyed reading late into the night.

As SH said, thanks for writing such a great story--and especially for letting us see into Snape's mind as well as Harry's. It adds a richness to the characters that would be hard to get just from Harry's POV.

Eeyore

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n/a
deleted

1483 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  12:21:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*pops in*

I think the word you're searching for is "brazier."

*pops out*
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  14:30:02  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pesky Pixie

*pops in*

I think the word you're searching for is "brazier."

*pops out*


Oh, bless you. This has been driving me crazy all day. Normally I can retrieve words like this from memory, but once I saw "brassiere" and I had that funny, snort, mental picture, all other possible spellings just fled my rapidly aging brain.

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  16:34:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brassieres versus braziers!
This is why I send my chapters out to you guys! It helps me to avoid humiliating myself before the entire online world (or at least those who bother to read my stories)!

Thanks for the wonderful comments! I'm so glad that you enjoyed this chapter. I love weaving together all of JKR's little details. She has given us so much to work with.

I like writing from Snape's pov because his internal monologue is more fun to write than Harry's. Harry tends to be rather earnest. He's always trying to do the right thing and is burdened by his responsibilities. Severus is much more pragmatic. He rarely admits his feelings even to himself and is more inclined to do the right thing in order to spite his enemies rather than because it's "right". He doesn't do noble. That's one of those weak, sentimental emotions that he refuses to admit being capable of. Of course there's quite a lot this man won't admit to himself and that will take extraordinary digging to uncover... but that's for another chapter.

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"Always"

Edited by - Theowyn on 02/02/2007 16:49:57
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  17:27:39  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
*accepts all blame for typos and wrong words*

*runs away*

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
Professor Stephen Hawking
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2007 :  21:00:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rave reveiws for Chapter 19!
quote:
You did a wonderful job making us worried for Snape (even though we knew he had to get out of there safely.)

Yes, but we also know that just because Severus has more story to be in, doesn't mean that he will be exempt from horrible things before all is done. I was on the edge of my seat when Voldemort showed up.

Dinna fash yourself too much about typo's on the internet. I just visited "Pan's Labirynth" web-site and there were numerous problems with their text-- and I don't believe it was a translation issue. Some of the errors looked more like sloppy editing/copy & pasting mess ups.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2007 :  15:13:25  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
I like writing from Snape's pov because his internal monologue is more fun to write than Harry's. Harry tends to be rather earnest. He's always trying to do the right thing and is burdened by his responsibilities. Severus is much more pragmatic. He rarely admits his feelings even to himself and is more inclined to do the right thing in order to spite his enemies rather than because it's "right". He doesn't do noble. That's one of those weak, sentimental emotions that he refuses to admit being capable of. Of course there's quite a lot this man won't admit to himself and that will take extraordinary digging to uncover... but that's for another chapter.

Earnest is the perfect word for Harry. And I'm really looking forward to Snape learning about himself. As I think you've said before, HPEW was about Harry learning about himself and his fears and prejudices. Now it's Snape's turn. I will greatly enjoy the process, I know, even if it is painful at times. But I'm wondering if this story, Siobhan, will also reverse HPEW and have Harry hurt so that Snape learns just how important he is to him.

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gimu
Addled

Ireland
209 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2007 :  15:35:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
WeeHee - great chapter - had me on the edge of my seat which was rather difficult considering I had my 4-year old nephew on my knee at the time. I was so worried for severus when voldemort arrived, and then when he told him his plan for what to do with him - how horrible!! I thought it was a fantastic chapter despite the double d's
Thanks so much for taking the time to continue writing the story - something we all need just in case SINUS. Do you think you will have it finished before deathly hallows?
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2007 :  17:01:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thus we learn, once again, the importance of being earnest.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Sunsethill, a major injury to Harry would balance the stories wonderfully (HPEW Severus is tortured within an inch of his life; HPCS ?), but I don't know if it is necessary, per se. Perhaps it will be part of the aftermath of the Voldemort vs. Potter showdown.

There's another question there, Theo. How far after your defeat of Voldemort does the story go?

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2007 :  17:09:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gimu

WeeHee - great chapter - had me on the edge of my seat which was rather difficult considering I had my 4-year old nephew on my knee at the time. I was so worried for severus when voldemort arrived, and then when he told him his plan for what to do with him - how horrible!! I thought it was a fantastic chapter despite the double d's.
Thanks so much for taking the time to continue writing the story - something we all need just in case SINUS. Do you think you will have it finished before deathly hallows?

Voldemort is quite a sadistic SOB. He really does enjoy tormenting people - not just physically torturing them, but tormenting them in every way possible.

Alas, I can make no comment about who may or may not get hurt in the coming chapters, which is a pity because I swear at least one of you has been reading my outline.

Myf, don't you dare run off. There'd be dozens more errors in these chapters if it weren't for you, so keep that red pencil handy.

As for timing, I definitely plan to finish before DH, though it would have been easier if JKR had waited until fall to publish. But I'm not complaining. I'll just have to write faster.

quote:
There's another question there, Theo. How far after your defeat of Voldemort does the story go?
Ah, this is a good question. I plan to have a wrap up chapter after the final battle to tie up the loose ends. But life goes on for the survivors and I think that I will end with plenty of fodder for the future adventures of...

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Edited by - Theowyn on 02/03/2007 17:13:16
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2007 :  19:23:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oooooooohies!
That means there's more to come!!!!! Actually, that's a relief for me. I'm still apprehensive about the way JKR will close her story line. She'll keep us guessing, I know, and will probably deliver a whopper, but I had this same concern before HBP. What if I don't like it? What if she ignores all the things I find important/interesting aside from the main story? This allows me to read further into an alternate story line with a more cerebral emphasis (oh, I just love that word!).

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2007 :  19:25:01  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theowyn
Alas, I can make no comment about who may or may not get hurt in the coming chapters, which is a pity because I swear at least one of you has been reading my outline.
I plan to have a wrap up chapter after the final battle to tie up the loose ends. But life goes on for the survivors and I think that I will end with plenty of fodder for the future adventures of...


I can't wait to see who guessed what. That will be fun. I'm glad you're writing faster...and even more glad that you are thinking you might want to play in your version of this universe some more.

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Krabat
Giddy

Germany
40 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  08:16:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi everyone,

yes, I can only repeat what has been said in the last few entries. The chapter was really good. In addition to all the hard facts we got, the chapter also gave new insides to other plot lines.
First, I am really curious about Mr. Day and the DPS. So, he has his hands on the Daily Prophet and we already heard from Athur Weasley that Day is someone to be reckoned with. If he wants information, he sooner or later has to confront Dumbledore, whose main source of information is Snape. And there are a lot of things that a legal agency could use to put pressure on Snape. I am looking forward to learn more about Mr. Day.

Oh, by the way, when I read about Snape preparing a Patronus message, I was wondering whether or not we already know his Patronus form?

I really liked the end of the chapter for several reasons. Although the relationship between Harry and Snape is the focus of the story, I also enjoy his interaction with Dumbledore. We have already seen in Grimmauld Place in the summer that Dumbledore is perhaps the only one who Snape trusts. So Dumbledore is also the only one that can help Snape with the immense pressure of his situation. I wonder, if his help is enough or if Snape will crack under the strain sooner or later.
In the conversation between Harry and Dumbledore it became clear that Dumbledore starts to perceive Harry as an adult, or at least not as a child anymore. The scene where Dumbledore told him how he remebers every person he sent to death was really intense.
As always it remains to be seen in how far Snape accepts Harry. I believe, that Snape is not able to act as a mentor in every sense of the word for Harry. He gives the impression, that he cannot decide whether Harry is just some ignorant child or a sensible adult, as if there is no in between. In any case, his relationship to Harry is complicated and he reacts again by trying to get rid of him. So again we have no communication between the two and the longer they wait, the harder it gets. I am really looking forward to finding out, how this dilemma will be resolved.

So, lots of rambling with the following essence: thanks for the nice chapter.
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  10:39:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
He [Snape] gives the impression, that he cannot decide whether Harry is just some ignorant child or a sensible adult, as if there is no in between.
In a sense he cannot and there is not. There's either Harry/James as a arrogant, puerile boy or there's Harry/Lily as a compassionate mature adult. Snape doesn't make allowances.
From his own past experience he knows that young people make stupid mistakes through ignorance, lack of forethought, and/or carelessness (something he has blamed James for as well). He feels so deeply that he himself (and James) should have known better that he's going to make certain that those kinds of mistakes are pointed out when made, therefore possibly averting further folly. But things don't work out the way Severus wants them too. His manner is too repressive which causes rebellion and animosity. Harry, afterall, is not James, Lily, or Severus, for that matter.
Now there's a mistake for you-- not taking the time to size up an ally/enemy impartially. Snape has a preconceived idea of who Harry is from day one. Nothing Harry can do or say will change that idea, but sometimes reinforces it. Though Snape made progress at the end of HPEW, his own personal sense of guilt still exists. He has to get beyond it. He may indeed have to come to the point where Harry is near death (in defense of Snape?) before he realises or admits what Harry means to him and who Harry really is.

Now I've rambled. I'll have to come back later and reread what I just wrote and see if it makes sense.

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sunsethill
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Posted - 02/06/2007 :  13:04:12  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good points, Siobhan. Snape really isn't seeing Harry impartially, which is a terrible tactical mistake for someone like Snape. But then again, we know that Harry has always brought out this irrationality. We only see Snape loose it in Canon when faced with Harry or a Marauder. Maturing past this, I'm sure, will be a major aspect of what Theo accomplishes in the rest of the story.

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