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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2006 :  18:25:58  Show Profile Send Siobhan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Couldn't resist using "the broken bottle" for the title of this category!

**Aside from wanting to discuss the chapter, I thought I should jump in here and add that there are spoilers throughout this conversation. It is unavoidable, I'm afraid, as we must talk specifics. So to any new readers out there, be aware that we do blab a bit.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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Edited by - Myf on 08/23/2007 21:51:00

Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2006 :  05:35:46  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
LOL--nice one. I bet Theo had no idea what a stir that would cause when Harry found that broken bottle.

Eeyore
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2006 :  20:35:07  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Quite a ridiculous hooha, really. I find myself now trying to pick the most unlikely things in the chapters I'm beta-ing that people will find silly/unrealistic/out of character/ all of the above. I never manage to pick it.

Speaking of beta-ing - I am so behind on it!

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
Professor Stephen Hawking
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  11:23:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not for me, you aren't!
Thanks, Myf.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  16:39:01  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Couldn't resist using "the broken bottle" for the title of this category!


This cracked me up! Fan discussion can be a real hoot sometimes!

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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  16:52:49  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I'm just waiting for this to come up: "... and then Harry pressed the enter key and the computer virus ran through Voldemort's computer network..."
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  17:05:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, the Order would have to get Voldie to upload spyware first. That way they could keep track of where he's been on the internet.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  17:53:38  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

I'm just waiting for this to come up: "... and then Harry pressed the enter key and the computer virus ran through Voldemort's computer network..."



Ben, you're hilarious! Of course, I believe Butterbeer comes in bottles, so they are not completely unknown in the wizarding world. But the only computers I remember were in a wonderful fanfic that featured Miss Climpson of Lord Peter Wimsey fame who acted as the muggle liason for the muggle world. I think she had learned to use computers when they were introduced!

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2006 :  03:38:02  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethillBen, you're hilarious! Of course, I believe Butterbeer comes in bottles, so they are not completely unknown in the wizarding world.


No, you're mistaken Sunsethill! Didn't you realise that not only does Butterbeer NOT come in bottles, wizards also don't have hands with which to wield this unlikely object, nor do they have jugular veins which could be severed with it. They have no blood at all. Don't let any canon references to blood or mortality mislead you, Sunsethill!

(the inclusion of hands on this image is clearly the work of a deranged smiley-maker: )

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2006 :  04:30:17  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Myf, I'm glad somebody finally admitted what was obvious to all of us from day one.
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AMC
Mediwizard

1710 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2006 :  13:06:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh no - everyone knows that Wizards are just the same as other non-magic people! If they fall out of windows, they don't bounce! If blood suddenly starts spurting out of their chest from severed arteries, they die! If one hand gets burnt to a dry crisp and all the flesh and muscled burned away, the hand will certainly not work any more. Just like Muggles.


And I love you, I love you, I love you.
Like never before, like never before.

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2006 :  16:13:24  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hmm, now if I only had enough time, I could go through all six books to figure out how everyone in the HP universe has died. Of course, we have seen an awful lot of people die of AK, but I don't think this is considered typical motality. So, since magical children can bounce when they fall out of windows, why was everyone so concerned about Harry falling from his broom in first year? How high was Neville when he bounced anyway? Has some crazy person at the Lexicon made a study of this yet?

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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  07:17:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know what the broken bottle reference is now. *feels a tad squeamish*

I just read chapters 1-6 in one go. Hooray! So, so great. Thank you so much, Theowyn! Now I need to decide if I'm going to read the rest of it as it arrives in my inbox or wait another while and have a splurge. Decisions, decisions...

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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  13:06:10  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Uhmm, is it Thursday yet?

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  14:42:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bee, did you stop in at DA to see the whole broken bottle plausible/implausible discussion? If you do, you'll see how the debate spawned the name.

Hmmm. I wonder how Theo is doing after her surgery. Has anyone heard from her? *coughmyfcough*

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  15:03:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Bee, did you stop in at DA to see the whole broken bottle plausible/implausible discussion? If you do, you'll see how the debate spawned the name.



Yep, certainly did. Wanted to prepare myself before joining the new thread. :)

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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  17:36:03  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
How did I miss that Theo was having surgery? My best wishes to you, Theo, for a speedy recovery.

Eeyore

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  17:57:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gall stones. She mentioned it in the tea shop on DA a couple weeks ago saying she would have surgery on the following Monday-- which was the 12th if I got it right.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2006 :  18:28:07  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Ugh, not fun surgery, but at least she should feel better when she is all recovered from it. I've heard that having gall stones are no picnic either.

Eeyore

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Bee
Mediwizard

846 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2006 :  08:21:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Get well soon, Theo! x

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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2006 :  00:18:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone! I'm finally back. Surgery went fine and I've basically been lazing about all week. Thanks to Bee for pointing out that I should be over here instead of DA where I've been popping in to see if I needed to respond to anything. I had no idea HPCS had taken off so rapidly here and I looooooove the "the broken bottle". I feel truly honored now.

Four days until Thursday...


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aguila
Giddy

7 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2006 :  15:26:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh she sent me a mail this afternoon. That is the reason I found the way back to you all. The only problem: I didnīt know about the surgery... blushes
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  00:11:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi guys. I just sent out Chapter 7. Enjoy.

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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  18:27:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why is it that Moody is the only one to see a pattern in these deaths? No one in the Ministry appears to be tying them together. There have now been three wizard deaths supposed to have been caused by muggle means. McFarlane we know about and is understandable, the car accident really should not have happened, and the mugging is highly unusual, yet Moody is the only one suspicious? And he's so ready to believe it is Snape doing the murdering....

The Department of Public Safety sounds a bit like Homeland Security.

In any event, we're back to the status quo between Harry and Snape.

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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MrBen
Barmy

Australia
284 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  19:00:35  Show Profile  Visit MrBen's Homepage  Send MrBen an AOL message  Click to see MrBen's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Teehee, I so picked up on the Homeland Security allusions too. I agree with everything Siobhan has said.

Kinda odd having a bit from Snape's perspective. I'm actually wondering why it was nessesary for the insight.

This would all go a lot smoother if HP would just ask Snape (or Spane as I keep on typing this morning) whether he was responsible. I do find it odd that Snape didn't consider there was a catalyst for The HP's change of heart towards him, for he's soooo smart and soooo wise.

I'm picking Moody killed the Death Eaters and is actually after something else from Snape. :)
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sunsethill
Confunded

USA
653 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  19:32:39  Show Profile  Visit sunsethill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm afraid I didn't much like your Moody in HPEW, Theo, and I REALLY am ticked at him now. But poor Harry keeps making the same mistakes. When will he learn? (I know, there wouldn't be much story if he didn't have these failings.) Why does he not wonder why Moody is being all secretive and manipulative, and why doesn't he just talk to Dumbledore--or Snape for good heavens? I know that you have shown Harry's and Snape's relationship as strained by now, but I'm not sure that it is completely believable that Harry would so easily accept Snape as the murderer.

I'm afraid I am pretty much of a wimp in situations like this. I really hate it when characters I like get in trouble because someone else manipulates them! I call it the Cat in the Hat plot. [:I]

I agree with your take on Snape being unable to forgive himself or believe that anyone else can truly forgive him. Hopefully, he will make progress on that in this story.

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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  19:46:27  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrBen

This would all go a lot smoother if HP would just ask Snape



Things would have gone a lot smoother if Voldemort tripped over his own shoelaces in 1973 and accidently impaled himself on something sharp. Why didn't JKR just write that!?

Hee, now I'm imagining it. 'Once upon a time lived a nasty wizard with ambitions to take over the world. Then he fell over and died. He has a nifty little backstory, but you don't need to know that now. The moral of the story is always tie your shoelaces. The End.'


If you're looking for trouble you found it.
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Siobhan
Chief Healer

USA
2157 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  20:53:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why does that remind me of the time Spongebob forgot how to tie his shoes?
I agree with Sunset about Moody. I'm not happy with him. I know he has to be an underhanded sneak to find anything out, but he has no business making Harry one too. The part where Harry is grilling Snape on motivations and means could just as easily be applied to Moody. The reason Lupin wouldn't do what Moody asked is that he has a higher standard of ethics, not that he's less devoted to the law. And what happens when the Ministry abuses it's power as it seems to be headed toward doing? Does that give Moody carte blanc to go around killing suspected DE's or sending people to Azkaban without trial?

Deliberatley causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class.
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Theowyn
Looney

1078 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  03:15:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow! All sorts of great comments here.

Myf, I love The Tale of the Untied Shoelace.

quote:
Originally posted by Siobhan

Why is it that Moody is the only one to see a pattern in these deaths? No one in the Ministry appears to be tying them together.

Paranoia is Moody's middle name but in this case he isn't unjustified in his suspicions. Moody is an old hand at the Auror business and he knows when things don't feel right. The younger Aurors don't have that experience and the Ministry, quite frankly, is perfectly happy to have five fewer DEs to worry about. Moody acknowledged this himself at the beginning of chapter 4. But he truly believes that if justice doesn't apply to everyone, it serves no one and that even a murderer has a right not to be murdered.

quote:
The Department of Public Safety sounds a bit like Homeland Security.

Yes, only scarier.

quote:
I'm picking Moody killed the Death Eaters and is actually after something else from Snape.

I LOVE this.

quote:
I'm afraid I didn't much like your Moody in HPEW, Theo, and I REALLY am ticked at him now.

Well, Moody isn't exactly the warm and fuzzy sort. It's really amazing how many prickly characters there are in HP.

quote:
Why does he [Harry] not wonder why Moody is being all secretive and manipulative...

Give him a little time. Harry's problem here is that he is a very trusting soul and he trusts Moody.

quote:
... and why doesn't he just talk to Dumbledore--or Snape for good heavens?

*Snort* You know the answer to that. Harry never talks to anyone. None of these people do.

quote:
I know that you have shown Harry's and Snape's relationship as strained by now, but I'm not sure that it is completely believable that Harry would so easily accept Snape as the murderer.

There are a couple of things at work here. First, as Moody pointed out there aren't a lot of people who are likely to be out hunting DEs. Snape is one of the few who has the skill. He certainly has motive and Harry knows that he has had the opportunity what with all of his nocturnal excursions. Harry also knows from personal experience that Snape is capable of killing DEs. So while he doesn't want to believe this, Moody's argument is a compelling one to him.

quote:
And what happens when the Ministry abuses it's power as it seems to be headed toward doing? Does that give Moody carte blanc to go around killing suspected DE's or sending people to Azkaban without trial?

No. The Ministry gave the Auror's leave to use the Unforgivables during Voldywar I and Moody only ever killed when it was unavoidable. His ethics on this point are unassailable.



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Edited by - Theowyn on 06/24/2006 03:19:14
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Myf
Confunded

571 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  04:18:15  Show Profile  Visit Myf's Homepage  Click to see Myf's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunsethill I know that you have shown Harry's and Snape's relationship as strained by now, but I'm not sure that it is completely believable that Harry would so easily accept Snape as the murderer.



Theowyn's addressed it too, but it's worth remembering the way Moody frames the possibility, too -

If Snape's guilty - Harry, surely your conscience would tell you that murder is murder and Snape needs to be stopped! *manipulates*

If Snape's innocent - Harry, wouldn't you like to acquit him of these charges? Of course you would. *manipulates*

Either way - Harry, give us a hand with this, won't you? *manipulates*

There's Moody for you - he knows what he wants and he probably doesn't see himself as being terribly manipulative here.

If you're looking for trouble you found it.
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Eeyore
Barmy

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  05:15:31  Show Profile  Send Eeyore a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, there was something that bothered me about this whole thing in chapter 7--aside from the disturbing similarity to Homeland Security, which I find very scary in and of itself. And I think I've figured out what it is.

Moody puts Harry in the position that Scrimgeour, in canon, did. "things aren't going well, but you can help us out, because you are Harry Potter." Now, of course, in canon, Scrimgeour wanted Harry to be very public about aligning himself with the Ministry, and Moody, in HPCS, wants him to be very sneaky, but ultimately Harry would still be helping the Ministry in finding out who is committing all the Death Eater murders, with the intent being to lay the blame on Snape--reminiscent of the Ministry laying the blame on Stan Shunpike.

Moody, in canon, has always held himself to a higher ethical standard than other aurors or than the Ministry--even though he was obsessed with catching Death Eaters, he still only killed when it was an absolute necessity, even though they had permission to use Unforgiveable Curses or whatever else they wanted, Moody didn't because he thought that made the aurors as bad as the Death Eaters. By doing that, he answered the question that comes up in this sort of situation--do the ends justify the means? By sticking to a more ethical conduct, Moody answered that question.

But in HPCS, when he talks to Harry, it seems that he is aligning himself (Moody) very closely with the Ministry, which he seems to have mistrusted for quite some time. I don't think it fits well. It takes Moody out of character. He is asking Harry to do something that really puts Harry at risk in a relationship with a man who is still his teacher. And that just seems very wrong, even for Moody. I would think that Moody would be trying to convince someone else to get evidence against Snape. And actually, if Moody has arranged for Snape to be out of the house for a while, why doesn't he just go in and do the search himself? Why push that off on Harry? I don't think he would actually. If Moody is hoping to prove that it's Snape who is going on nocturnal killing sprees, then I really think that Moody would want all the credit for catching Snape in some wrong doing.

Even before HBP, Harry had lost some of his respect and awe for anyone having anything to do with the Ministry. The only aurors he really respected were the ones who are involved in the Order--and they are certainly not working to do anything to make the Ministry look better or to even help them. So it just didn't work for me that Harry would even consider trying to gather evidence against Snape.

This also kind of parallels the time when Riddle showed Harry a memory that implicated Hagrid. While Harry had some doubts, he still trusted Hagrid. Harry has a lot more reason to trust Snape, after all they went through (in HPEW) than he did with Hagrid. I don't think he would be so easily convinced that sneaking into Snape's room and looking for physical evidence would be a good idea.

It seems that this chapter is the one that brings Harry to some of the canon decisions he had to make--who to trust and how much. But I don't think it would take Harry any longer to say no to Moody on this one that it did for Harry to say no to Scrimgeour. Unethical behavior is unethical, no matter the intended outcome or who the person is making the request.

Eeyore

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Edited by - Eeyore on 06/24/2006 05:18:04
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